Body Density Maps - Request

[Seadog]

It hardly bears thinking about, just one vast charnel house. What a task that was disinterring so many remains and transporting them to the new concentration war cemeteries. The numbers are incredible for map square five alone records a total of 1,850 sets of remains. What did this place look like in 1919 it must have just been a vast landscape of crosses in every direction.

Norman

[Scorpion61]

Here is a direct link to the map mentioned in post 20 just click on the image to enlarge:

http://www.flickr.co...157603237480463

The figures are truly horrendous.

Norman

Thank you Norman for that link. My uncle was with 5th Bty 2nd Bde NZFA and was killed in sector 36a on this map, 09 October 1916. He was not one of the seven noted for this square but was initially buried at Fricourt Wood Cemetery and then re-interred at Danzig Alley British Cemetery, Mametz.

The numbers are horrendous

Dennis

[Guest]

Good morning,

I know that this is a bit of a long shot, but I’m researching the 6th Battalion, Yorkshire Regt deaths in  the Poelcappelle area (my great grandfather being one) and I was wondering if it would be possible to be sent a copy of the Body Density map for that area (I’ve tried to find it online, but had no joy).

[WhiteStarLine]

Welcome to the forum!  How close do you need?  Mine are from Sheet 28.D.2 which is just a little south of Poelkappelle itself.

 

Individual Burial Locations

22 from Sheet 28.D.2.a

14 from Sheet 28.D.2.b

10 from Sheet 28.D.2.c

55 from Sheet 28.D.2.d

51 from Sheet 28.D.3.a

16 from Sheet 28.D.3.b

182 from Sheet 28.D.3.c

106 from Sheet 28.D.3.d

 

 

Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs, but these show the number of bodies thought to be present by Directorate of Graves Registration & Enquiries post-war and may or may not reflect actual body densities.

[Skipman]

Could someone tell me where one would find all body density maps. Is there a complete set of these in the National Archives that couyld be photographed?

 

Mike

[spof]

There is no such things as a "Body Density Map". I've spoken to many CWGC people over the years and they all say the same as in this post

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

Some maps here:

 

https://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2015/05/an-extraordinary-map-of-battle-death-body-density-maps-1918.html

 

The WFA published some of these if I remmber correctly.

 

TR

[Skipman]

32 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Some maps here:

 

https://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2015/05/an-extraordinary-map-of-battle-death-body-density-maps-1918.html

 

The WFA published some of these if I remmber correctly.

 

TR

 

Thanks very much Terry. Still wondering where any of these are kept. "[Source: John Hughes-Wilson, The First World War in 100 Objects, Firefly Books, 2014.]" must have got them from somewhere

[Terry_Reeves]

Mike

 

The WFA produced them on their CD as well. The IWM also show one of them in their site.

TR

[Skipman]

4 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Mike

 

The WFA produced them on their CD as well. The IWM also show one of them in their site.

TR

 

 

Mike

[est51]

Sorry to come so late to this topic. I'm in the middle of planning my next trip to the High Wood / Delville Wood area and searches brought up this debate. I have a number of points:

 

If there is no such thing as a Body Density Map, why are there examples named as such on the CWGC and IWM websites?

 

As I understand them, the blue figures represent estimates of registered burials other than those in registered cemeteries. Given that, the numbers must fall short of the actual deaths in a particular square, as there would have been no chance of burying everyone and keeping track of the grave, particularly in squares fought over again and again where artillery fire would bury [and un-bury] corpses. Plus, of course, there are those in registered cemeteries within the squares to add [although those may have come from adjoining areas]. Unfortunately, the CWGC has clouded the issue with the note under the Body Density Map here:

https://shapingoursorrow.cwgc.org/denial/how-cemeteries-developed/ where it states "Body Density Maps estimating the number of people killed in areas of the Somme and Ypres Salient."

 

Going by the explanation on the map, the larger numbered squares are 1,000 yards along each side, whilst the smaller squares are 500 yards along each side. The smaller squares are labelled "a to d" [see any square numbered 6 to see the letter arrangement - Square "T, 6" to the immediate east of Les Boeufs being the clearest example] I don't know where John Ptak got the impression that the squares are much smaller https://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2015/05/an-extraordinary-map-of-battle-death-body-density-maps-1918.html  and I certainly don't want to understate the level of death and carnage on the field of battle but it doesn't help understanding to exagerate the slaughter.

 

I've read in a number of places over the years that the squares including High Wood weren't cleared after the war and that an estimated 8,000 bodies remain within the wood [Allied and German]. That would explain the absence of any blue numbers within squares "4, a-d". Perhaps it was felt that the numbers were too high to publish for PR reasons, so soon after the war when emotions were still very raw. Having said that, the numbers are present on the map for Delville Wood, so if anyone has a definitive reason for the numbers being omitted from High Wood I'd be very grateful to hear it.

 

Steve

 

[jay dubaya]

It is believed the blue pencil was used by Lt Col AA Messer who through the DGR&E appears to have dealt with cemeteries and exhumations. The accuracy of the numbers should be approached with caution since they are all undated and no one can say for sure how the numbers were arrived at. Some maps are further annotated with numbers that had been omitted through a ‘vagueness’ of location given, but again we do not know where the information came from nor how it was collated to arrive at figures we see. It can also be noted that the same blue pencil outlines physical features marking the boundary of sectors, a suggestion that labour companies were bounded by these features that could be seen on the ground rather than individual map squares. Between 1919 and 1921 when the care of the cemeteries and its dead was handed over to the IWGC, the Army had concentrated over 200,000 graves on the Western Front.

 

My conjecture... the blue pencil numbers may represent the number of registered graves an exhumation squad may be expected to find in each 500 x 500 yard square, the numbers do not include unregistered graves or exposed remains nor any graves in a registered cemetery even if that cemetery is planned for concentration. One could perhaps suggest that the numbers may have been used by the OC of a labour company for planning purposes, for instance, how many squads were needed in a particular area and how the time factor would affect the days work, time being of great importance in the task and especially when moving exposed remains to their final resting places.

 

Perhaps an issue with the nomenclature we use 'Body Density Maps or a preferred 'Individual Burial Location Sheet' is that we don't know what the official name was. The DGR&E and in turn the IWGC used ‘location sheets’ in there searches for individual identifications and so for me the latter term seems more fitting, the former perhaps a little coarse but can be seen written (modern hand) on a backing sheet on one of the whole scanned maps. Whilst we may believe we have formed some understanding of their use I'm not aware that any official 'instructions' exist. Did the numbers account for registered but subsequently lost graves, nor do we understand to what extent the numbers affected the actual search for battlefield burials, exposed or unregistered graves… the puzzle will remain.

 

Ptak and his maths are somewhat questionable, it's easy to see where he went glaringly wrong. For clarity each map is divided into 24 squares each measuring 6,000 x 6,000 yards, each being divided into 36 sub squares each measuring 1,000 x 1,000 yards, each sub divided into a, b, c, d, each of these measuring 500 x 500 yards (the length of 5 x the width of 10 football pitches) and each containing a blue pencil number. I don't think there was any intention to exaggerate, there really isn't any need if you have some understanding of the numbers involved in the building of the Silent Cities and the vast Memorials to the Missing where there are too many names and not enough words.

 

High Wood and it's shattered remains was without doubt a charnel house and probably was the final resting place for 8000 souls – friend and foe alike. The number perhaps being born in Phillip Johnstone’s ‘High Wood’ and to quote Terry Norman ‘The Hell They Called High Wood’ ‘possibily on the conservative side’, I question it not…

 

By the Armistice the Somme woods were most likely draped in a dense thicket of foreboding undergrowth, which in itself coupled tangled roots and unexploded ordnance posed a massive obstacle to any search and recovery attempt. Given the numbers involved in the sector it does appear odd that a count has been omitted for the whole of S.4.a.b.c.d. There is a separate sheet but with the speculative understanding we may have of the numbers, could it be simple... there were no registered burials in S.4.

 

Concentration Reports suggest unregistered graves or exposed remains were recovered by the Army from High Wood and re-interred at Caterpillar Valley Cemetery between 1919 and 1921, although at present I’m not putting a number on that. The following extract was first posted some years ago by forum member Terry Carter, the date of the map is not clear and it may appear to have been used over several periods. The yellow numbers indicate those re-interred at Caterpillar Valley Cemetery, date unknown. The red dots indicate those remains recovered from searches by the IWGC post 1921 and into 1930’s, with an odd one or two either side of another war, these remains were re-interred at London Cemetery & Extension. I have no desire to go number crunching on this… not at present anyway.

 

On the Western Front between 1921 and 1938 over 38,000 unmarked graves had been re-interred in cemeteries. Further searches are also evident in certain areas during the 1950s into the early 1960s, not to mention the grim harvest the old battlefields continue to offer.

 

This series of maps also contains those annotated with red/purple ink indicating the location of cemeteries, believed to be the hand of Sir Herbert Ellissen, who like Messer, played a senior role in the cemeteries. Although again undated it may be possible to suggest an educated date for those wishing to delve in that direction. Whilst these are useful they do pose some inaccuracies and one should consult extant cemeteries, a known IWGC publication is also a useful reference for those with an interest in this area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2020 by jay dubaya
it's late... I may be back to correct my own glaring mistakes...

[WhiteStarLine]

On 28/12/2020 at 22:47, est51 said:

If there is no such thing as a Body Density Map, why are there examples named as such on the CWGC and IWM websites?

Firstly, what an outstanding reply by Jay.  One of the great things about a forum like this is that replies like that endure, for those who search or stumble on the topic at a later date.

 

Secondly, to address Steve's question.  A few years ago I put up a heat map, with the imaginative but factual title "Showing the number of bodies thought to be present by Directorate of Graves Registration & Enquiries..".  It's not a Body Density Map and they are not Individual Burial Locations but if the name most people would associate with this annotation to a trench map is Body Density Map then rightly or wrongly this has stuck!

 

 

[AOK4]

Even with all this, there remains a further issue concerning graves and concentrations, which no one ever cares to think about (often also because most people have no idea at all): what did the Germans do during the time that they occupied the area in 1918 (both the Ypres Salient and the Somme area)? I have only come across a few hints that they have buried (moved) allied bodies as well. There are some hints in German regimental histories/diaries, but also in the Red Cross files. Especially in the Ypres Salient, the German involvment may be very important (as there hadn't been time for British units to properly bury the dead, unlike the Somme where there had been a year time).

[est51]

Thank you for your comprehensive response JW, it is very helpful. Thank you too to "WhiteStarLine" for the heat map. For clarity, may I just add that I didn't intend to imply that the figures were deliberately exaggerated by John Ptak.