FE2d - Colony of Mauritius - No 15

[mickdavis]

On FE2Bs I think

and FE2ds - check the pic of A6429 inour CCI monograph

[centurion]

Clemshark

Do you have any proof other than his letters that he was at Joyce Green? As I said he does not appear in ANY of the Home defence sorties in The Air Defence of Britain which is pretty much the definitive work on the subject and lists ALL the individual sorties and pilots If he was chasing airships and aircraft around the sky at the time he would have been mentioned. He is not mentioned in the details of the action in which SL 11 was shot down and all pilots are named. Interestingly the pilot with the most home defence sorties was a Squadron Commander C H Butler of the RNAS

[SteveMarsdin]

Good morning All,

I have no great knowledge of (or particular interest in) WW1 aviation but this thread has created great intrigue - who really was Captain Butler and what did he actually do ?

[centurion]

A good question

So far I've not been able to find any contemporary source that confirms the detail of his time in WW1 as expressed in the quotes from his letters and his interview. In 1918 the chief instructor at Turnberry was Gerald C Maxwell and the senior instructors under him were Leacroft, Atkinson, Tailor and LeGallais. Other instructors included from time to time McCudden and Elliott (an FB2 ace who drowned in an accident at Turnberry). However I cannot find any mention of Butler but I cannot find a complete list of instructors so he may be there. Two things seem strange however all the Turnberry instructors I can find have had significant fighting  (and command)experience over France, being for the most part aces, and going from instructor to be the chief instructor at no 2 Fighting and Gunnery school seems like a big jump

A most elusive gent, I really would like to find some corroborative evidence.

[SteveMarsdin]

The online Australian Dictionary of Biography summarises his WW1 service as:

"Among the February 1915 candidates, Butler alone gained entrance as an aeromechanic to the Australian Flying School at Point Cook, Victoria. Commissioned three weeks after joining the Royal Flying Corps in 1916, he became fighting-instructor at Turnberry, Scotland, in 1917, and chief fighting-instructor at No. 2 Yorkshire School of Aerial Fighting in 1918. He alternated teaching with studying German aerial combat tactics over France, and he received the Air Force Cross in 1918."

No mention of subs or other actions. In their references they do refer to:"E. R. Burnett-Reid, ‘The Harry Butler story’, Aviation Historical Society of Australia, Journal, 4 (1963), no 4; Advertiser (Adelaide), 5 July, 7, 30 Aug 1919; Observer (Adelaide), 14 Jan 1922, 2 Aug 1924; H. Butler collection, PRG 207, and letters to G. Ward (State Records of South Australia)"

Do any Aussies have access to any of these references, particularly the first one ?

[SteveMarsdin]

Some of Les' other posts along similar lines may contain further clues:

 

 

 

[mickdavis]

The rear port view shows an early 120-hp FE2b fitted with the Trafford Jones undercarriage. The location is neither Turnberry or Joyce Green (the 1915 pattern flight shed, shown in the background, appeared at neither station - Turnberry had the 1917 pattern GS sheds, plus lots of Bessonneau hangars and Jpyce Green had a wooden hangar style peculiar to that station, possibly built by Vickers).

The 1915 pattern sheds did appear at both Dover and Gosport but 49 Sqn didn't operate FE2bs and 27 RS only received a few after Butler's time with the unit.

[centurion]

and FE2ds - check the pic of A6429 inour CCI monograph

Sorry what monograph? who are "our"?

[centurion]

At last a glimmer more light

Looking at the London Gazette between 1 1 1916 and 31 12 1919 we find

Sept 29th 1916 2nd Lt H J Butler gazetted

June 20th 1917 2nd Lt H J Butler Appointed Flight Commander and to be temp Captain whilst so employed

July 1st 1917 2nd Lt H J Butler (temp Captain) to be Lt

June 22nd 1919 Capt H J Butler AFC to be removed to the unemployed list

However whilst in the last entry the Gazette shows him with an AFC there is no record of it being awarded. It would seem unlikely to have been before Oct 1918 when the first awards were officially announced (in which list he does not appear). Any explanations anyone?

[Dolphin]

However whilst in the last entry the Gazette shows him with an AFC there is no record of it being awarded.

See Page 97 of Gazette No 31098, 31 December 1918.

Gareth

[centurion]

See Page 97 of Gazette No 31098, 31 December 1918.

Gareth

Thanks

A search of Air Force Cross and Butler failed to show any returns and indeed the entries did not show up on just Air Force Cross - our forum search engine is obviously not the only one with oddities.

As a diversion the number of AFC awards recorded in the Gazette appears to fall far short of the number apparently awarded for WW1 service.

[clemshark]

Thanks everyone for your continued interest in this subject and Captain Butler.

I have been researching him for about 18 months and have a lot of information, but it is the war service that is proving harder to piece together.

THere are 60 odd pages on him at the archives in Kew, and are references to him in several gazzette notices, but it is in his letters home that have the interesting operational details.

The last few days i have been in his ( and my) home town of Minlaton and have for a while been intrigued by an old leater bound photo album in the local NAtional Trust with a little card reading "Captain HArry Butlers personal photo album". It was sitting in a glass case and i have wondered what was in it.

Fianally yesterday i got into the case, with the help of some of the NAtional Trust members, and scanned the entire contents.

To say the least it has given me a lot of work to do. Butler had approximately 600 photos of his war service in the album, and god bless him, he noted the location, people and serial numbers of all the planes in there.

There are many pictures of him in or beside many types of planes all with the serial numbers neatly noted.

If ok i will post any interesting ones or ones i have questions about.

Afetr the quick galne i have seen, he does note a couple of times " self leaving for France" along side several photos of him in or beside aircraft.

Another intersteing couple of photos and notations were

"Famous FE2B 4981- Lady Killer"

"Just leaving for France - August 1916"

"De H Scout 7866 - Leaving for France September 1916"

" VF just returned from Souries? Zepp, Sept 1916"

Plus many more, including references to about a dozen airfields and 20 or so other Captains, lieutenants, etc.

Just to clarify, Butler was at Turnberry from its initial startup in Jan 1917 until approximately April 1918, when he was posted to the no 2 fighting school at Marske. There are many sources of info about his service in both of these places, including plane log books, photos, contempory new articles, his own service records, etc.

What i am having a harder time peicing together is his possible France service during these periods as an instructor at Turnberry and Marske. Aside from letters, family annecdotes, newspapers, etc i cant find any official records of it.

I have been told though that often it was the case that records did not include operational details, unless they were of note and they were reported on or written about.

Hopefully the photos from his album will fill in some details.

Here are a couple to wet your appetite and hopefully continue the interest in this post.

Cheers,

Les

attachment=11647

[6:Officers.JPG]

[clemshark]

Clemshark

"Do you have any proof other than his letters that he was at Joyce Green? As I said he does not appear in ANY of the Home defence sorties in The Air Defence of Britain which is pretty much the definitive work on the subject and lists ALL the individual sorties and pilots If he was chasing airships and aircraft around the sky at the time he would have been mentioned. He is not mentioned in the details of the action in which SL 11 was shot down and all pilots are named. Interestingly the pilot with the most home defence sorties was a Squadron Commander C H Butler of the RNAS"

Hi Centurion,

In answer to your question about Joyce Green, i have copies of his oficial records that state he was attached to 10 RS, which was based at Joyce GReen. I now also have the personal photo album which has quite a few photos of Butler and others at Joyce GReen ( according to the notations on the side made by Butler)

I also have several letters with the Joyce GReen address given in them.

Also in his official records there are several administrative letters and notes addressed from Joyce Green, Dartford.

As far as what he did there, again i am going on his letters home and contemport newspaper reports that state about Zeppelin flights, etc. I am hoping some of the photos from his aircraft, and planes people identified in them will provide more info. Hopefully they have records available that mention Butlers operational service.

There are also a lot of photos from Glascow and Hythe so he was obviouly at both of these places at some stage.

Looking at the many aircraft he flew, his mentioned in despatches award and the fact he was in the RFC/RAF from 1916 until 1919, etc, it seems likely that he had some contribution to the war in the air. I would love to know how much and in what capacity.

I also found the original flight log of the Bristol M1c C5001, with all its flights recorded.

It seems Major Aizlewood took it for its first quick test run, then Butler took it up twice.

Then over the nect 6 months Butler flew it on almost every flight, other than one more from Aizlewood, a couple from Capt Fielding-Johnson and Catain Atkinson. Most of it is put down to Fighting Practice.

Les

[mickdavis]

Interestingly, neither DH2 7866 or FE2b 4981 appear to have served in France. There are no Aircraft Depot returns to record their arrival/departure and no mention in squadron records.

DH2 7866 was recorded with 10RS in June 1916. It seems to have been one of the DH2s evaluated for Home Defence duty. It was recorded with 63 Sqn at Cramlington on 28.1.1917 (which wasn't a HD unit), at York (probably Copmanthorpe, 76HDS A Flt aerodrome) on 27.3.1917 and with photographed at the 33HDS aerodrome at Kirton Lindsey. There is also another reference to it with 10RS in February 1917.

FE2b 4981 is only recorded against 51HDS C Flt at Mattishall.

The VF shown in one of the photos is a Vickers FB9, more than a dozen of which are known to have served with the unit. 2 (Aux) SAG at Turnberry also had a few.

10 RESERVE AEROPLANE/RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RFC/RAF

Bases

Formed in 6th Wing at Joyce Green 1.9.1915 from 2 RAS C Flt. To 18th Wing by 5.1916. Returned to 6th Wing by 1.1917. Designated as a Higher Reserve Squadron and establishment at 23.12.1916 set at 6 HF + 6 Vickers FB + 6 DH2/FE8. To Ternhill and 29th Wing 1.6.1917. To Shawbury 30.6.1917. To Lilbourne 7.4.1918. To Gosport and 8 Group 25.6.1918. Autumn 1918 establishment intended as 12 SE5a + 12 Avro. Disbanded 24.2.1919.

Commanding Officer

Representative Aeroplanes

Airco DH1 4629.

Airco DH2 6008, 7866, 7867, 7868, A2550, A2559, A2560, A2593, A2597, A2602, A2613, A4786, A4789, A4798, A4800, A4802, A4988.

Airco DH5 A9437.

Avro 504 779.

Avro 504A/J A8502, A8507, A8521, B917, B918, B919, B941, B945, B946, B948, B990, B995, B3108, B3153, B3276, B4230.

Avro 504J/K D4388, D4441, D7051.

Bristol Scout C 1607.

Bristol Scout D 5293, 5554, 5558, 5570, 5572, 5575, 7036, 7037, 7054, 7055, 7057, A1779, A1782.

Curtiss JN3 6122.

Curtiss JN4 5723.

GW XIV 594.

HF F.20 1836, 7403, 7413, 7414, 7420, 7428, 7429, 7440, 7441, A1154, A1183, A1192, A1194, A1250.

Martinsyde G.102 A3949, A4001.

MF Se.7 4008.

MF Se.11 5885.

RAF BE2c 1776, 2049, 4147, 4700.

RAF BE2e 7072.

RAF BE12a A565.

RAF FE8 6401, 6403, 6406, 7597.

RAF RE8 A3185, A3444.

RAF SE4 5610.

RAF SE5a D401.

Sopwith Pup A6230, B804, B1844, B1849, B1850, B2191, B2192, B2245, B5295, B5335, B5341, B5381, B6038, B6039, B6092, B6141.

Sopwith F1 Camel B2310, B2313, B5164, B5215, B6252, B6268, B6305, B6404, B6415, B6416, B6432, B6433, B7316, B7359, B9132, B9158, B9230, B9232, B9242, B9248, B9316, C8, C9, C15, C16, C92, E1507, E1508.

Vickers FB5 1624, 1630, 1644, 1646, 2865, 2867, 2879, 2880, 2883, 5618, 5620, 5659, 5668, 5679.

Vickers FB9 5272, 5273, 5279, 5280, 5281, 5287, A1411, A1412, A8601, A8602, A8611, A8618, A8624.

It would be interesting to see a list of the aerodromes mentioned, and even more interesting to see photos of them. If they are UK stations, they could be of help in tracing his movements.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good morning aero-experts,

I noticed in Les' post he uses the phrase "self leaving for France" even thought it is difficult to trace his exploits there. Earlier posts by Les refer to him flying sorties in France in his own time to improve his effectiveness as a trainer.

Could "self leaving" be his phrase for spending his leave in France in this way, in which case he may not appear on any records. I can't believe it would be permitted just to take off to France for a couple of weeks in this way but he does seem quite a character !!!

[centurion]

Again all the pilots who flew sorties on the night that Sowery brought down L33 are recorded and there is no mention of Butler.The RFC effort appears to have been primarily BE2 based, its only two sorties flown by 51 squadron from Thetford where the aircraft type is not  recorded. One crashed fatally on take off so the aircraft in the photo couldn't be that one. In both cases the pilot is recorded.  

There is no record of anyone with 10R squadron flying any home defence sorties which given their role as a unit training pilots in basic daylight flying is not surprising.

[clemshark]

Hi all,

I am still sorting through the album, but will give a quick list of bases and people that are in it.

The album seems to be from early in the peice, with many from his initial postings to Joyce GReen, Hythe and Turnberry. I cant see any photos from MArske. They seem to be from June 1916 until about the start of 1918. He was at turnberry from Jan 1917 until April 1918.

THe photos certainly seem to describe operational or home defence flights, which marries up with his letters and the newspaper reports.

Maybe someone will recognise the names of other pilots and this will tie in with thier operational experience and postings.

Pilots Mentioned ( and photos of - Many with Butler with them in the photo)

Im not an expert enough to pick the rank, but will put it down if it has been noted. I will also put down where the photo was taken if it has been identified.

Capt Ball, DSO, MC CD - Hythe

Capt Steele

Capt Gibson - Hythe

Capt Anderson

Lieut Martin

Sgt HEad

Capt WA McClougrry

Capt Hay - Glascow

Lieut Sutton

? -Robinson

Bristol

Hart-Davis

Brooks

Roach -Kelly

Casey

Russell

Lieut Alford

Capt Kitchiner

Capt Stooks

CPL Neville

Flt Sgt Fraser

Flt Sgt PArker

Flt Sgt Warren

Lieut Barnard

Lieut Perkins

Lieut Woodman

Lieut Martin

Lieut Markham

Lieut Shirtcliffe

Sgt Bowers

Sgt Ridley

Capt Tomlinson

Lieut Blythe

There are a few more but they are faded and i cant make out the names.

The following places or aerodromes are photographed

Catterick

Farnborough

Brooklyns

Turnberry

Hythe

Joyce GReen

Also he has photos of the following aircraft

FE2B's - Lined up - "B" Flight

BE2C

RE7 - Hythe

Maurice Farman SH

FE2B - 4981

DH Scout - 7866

VF - Sept 1916 - Joyce GReen or Hythe ( Souries Zepp)

FE2b - A830 - Grashed by Lieut Blythe

VF - Hythe

BE2C - Capt Kitchiner

FE2B - A788 - Crashed

FE2B - A809 - Crashed

Bristol Scout

Sopwith Camel

FE2D - A6527

BE2E - Crashed

FE2B - Catterick

Avro - Turnberry 1917

Sopwith Pup

BE2E - 3677

DH4

FE2b 4981 - Flown from Glascow to Turnberry - First plane to land there.

Viosin - Macelle?

??? - 6975

Anyone have any comments about these people or planes? Plenty of research to be done.

Cheers,

Les

[clemshark]

More Photos

[centurion]

Just to amend a previous post of mine - No 10 RA did fly some anti Zepp sorties - 3 to be precise, all on the night of 31Jan 1/Feb 1916. All three aircraft (BE2cs) crashed (one on take off). The pilots were named as Guifoyle, Unwin and Ridley. These were instructors not pupils. One (Major Unwin) was killed.

[clemshark]

Some more photos of aerodromes and planes.

Any comments to help me peice it together would be appreciated.

Are any of the names i posted of interest or of famous pilots ( Capt Ball DSO, MC,)

Les

[clemshark]

Couple of more photos.

Les

[centurion]

I assume that the Dh2s were part of a training unit. Only 2 Dh2 home defence sorties were flown - both from Orfordness in 1917 in response to daylight raids. No record of any Dh2 operational flights from Joyce Green.

[centurion]

Ball was at Hythe (RFC School of Aerial Gunnery) in Nov and Dec 1916 which is presumably when the photo posted was taken

[mickdavis]

A couple of thoughts on the list of personnel and places associated with Butler.

The Captain Kitchiner could by Captain HH Kitchener, who, after service with 7 Sqn in France, was an instructor at the Machine Gun School at Hythe from June 1916. The unit was re-designated as the School of Aerial Gunnery from September and then 1 (Aux) SAG from 4 January 1917, when 2 (Aux) SAG opened at Turnberry. Kitchener served at Hythe unitl at least March 1917.

The Sgt Bowers is possibly Sgt CWH Bowers who died in the crash of FE2b 6975 near Turnberry lighthouse on 1 May 1917, after the aeroplane had stalled on a turn at 300'. Does the 6975 photo mentioned show the aftermath of this crash?

The Catterick snowscene shows MF Se.11 'Shorthorns' which would have belonged to 14 RS - Catterick's other resident unit, 6 RS, as an advanced RS with VFs, DH2s and FE8s for scout pilot training.

The entry of BE2 3677 is a puzzle - the serial should relate to B3677, but that machine (along with B3672-B3675 is recorded on 26 Sqn charge at Dar-es-Salam, delivered 1 December 1917.

The delivery of 4981 to Turnberry (with the relevant date) has plugged a gap in the serial listing thanks

[clemshark]

The Captain Kitchiner could by Captain HH Kitchener, who, after service with 7 Sqn in France, was an instructor at the Machine Gun School at Hythe from June 1916. The unit was re-designated as the School of Aerial Gunnery from September and then 1 (Aux) SAG from 4 January 1917, when 2 (Aux) SAG opened at Turnberry. Kitchener served at Hythe unitl at least March 1917.

The Sgt Bowers is possibly Sgt CWH Bowers who died in the crash of FE2b 6975 near Turnberry lighthouse on 1 May 1917, after the aeroplane had stalled on a turn at 300'. Does the 6975 photo mentioned show the aftermath of this crash?

The Catterick snowscene shows MF Se.11 'Shorthorns' which would have belonged to 14 RS - Catterick's other resident unit, 6 RS, as an advanced RS with VFs, DH2s and FE8s for scout pilot training.

The entry of BE2 3677 is a puzzle - the serial should relate to B3677, but that machine (along with B3672-B3675 is recorded on 26 Sqn charge at Dar-es-Salam, delivered 1 December 1917.

The delivery of 4981 to Turnberry (with the relevant date) has plugged a gap in the serial listing thanks"

Thanks Mick,

Im trying to piece together his movements by the people and aircraft, so you comments are a great help. ( any more would also be appreciated)

The Bowers info seems to fit with HArry's movements. Unfortunately the only info is a photo of Harry infront of the plane with the notation that it was the plane Bowers later crashed.

One of the things i dont understand is why Harry has so many photos of airfields and planes when his official records show he was only at Gosport(27 RS), 49 sqdn (Dover?), Joyce Green (10RS), Turnberry and MArske.

Was it normal to fly in and out of other airfields or use planes attched to other squadrons?

Or could it be that his official war service records do dot have all the details.

I will attach another couple of photos for comment.

Les

"