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Remembered Today:

FE2d - Colony of Mauritius - No 15


clemshark

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Hi all,

Im hoping to piece together the history of a FE2D - Marked Colony of Muaritius - No 15 Ser no. A5761.

I have a copy of a photo, of Captain Henry John (Harry) Butler in it with an Observer identified as Capt Anderson.

The photo is dated the 28th June 1917.

With the photo was a letter where Capt Butler states that "this is one of the leading battle planes of the RFC" and on the morning of the 26th he and Anderson played a leading part in the capture of 2 German submarines. He went on to say " on the strength of it i have been mentioned in despatches and i think Anderson has been complimented as a gunner"

Does anyone have any info on this? At the time Butler was a flying instructor at No 2 School of Aerial Gunnery, Turnberry, but it seems he also did some operational flying in France, etc.

I say in the CCI Journal Vol 27 No 1 (1996) there is a mention of the plane stating it was used by no 97 and no 115 sqdn from July 1918, but i am keen to know where it was located before this. I am hoping that will give me some info on Butlers movements.

Does anyone know the history of this plane?

Also Butler mentions in a letter home that he has been appointed Chief fighting instructor at No 2 School of Aerial Fighting, Marske, in Sept 1918, after the death in an accident of Major Leslie Aizlewood. I have been told Aizlewood was the CO of this base and was wondering if BUtler as the Chief Fighting INstructor would have been made the CO until a replacement was found? Any info?

Any help on this plane or Butler would be greatly appreciated as i am trying to piece together BUtlers movements in the UK before returning to Australia in Mid 1919.

Cheers,

Les Parsons

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Hi Les,

Sorry can't help about the plane but have you seen the Australian Aviation History site,Google. Apparently Harry won the DFC. There is an oral history tape made by his wife in the Mortlock Library, Adelaide. S.A. "The Harry Butler Story by Minlaton District Council,S.A." Apologies if you already know but I enjoyed looking!.

All the Best,Regards Barry

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Les

The aeroplane in the photograph looks like an FE 2d, with the large radiator behind the pilot's cockpit.

FE 2b A5761 was built by G & J Weir Ltd at Cathcart, and was tested at No 1 Aircraft Depot on 16 June 1917. It was with 'C' Flt of No 33 Home Defence Squadron at Elsham in the UK by 23 March 1918, after which it served with Nos 148 and 149 Sqns at Ford Junction before they moved to the Western Front, arriving at the latter unit on 17 April. By 12 July it had moved to No 97 Sqn at Netheravon. After then it served in No 115 Sqn at Netheravon before ending up at No 1 (Southern) Aircraft Repair Depot at Farnborough on 18 January 1919.

To confuse matters, there was at least one other Mauritius No 15 (it was common to re-use a dedication): FE 2d A6527, built by Boulton & Paul Ltd at Norwich. This aeroplane saw operational service with No 20 Sqn in France; its crew (2Lt R M Trevethan & Lt C A Hoy) was credited with victories over Albatroses on 8 and 9 August 1917. There's a photograph of A6527, showing presentation markings identical to those in your photograph, in the recent Cross & Cockade publication on the FE 2b/d.

I hope that this helps you.

Gareth

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Thanks so much Gareth and Barry.

I have seen the info you have mentioned Barry, but thanks for letting me know.

GAreth, it seems to be likely that the second one you mentioned was the one in my photo. This would make sense if Butler flew it in June 1917. Looking at the photos in the CCI article i quoted before, it looks slightly different to the one i have.

How would i get any further info on its operational life and how Butler ended up flying it when he was an instructor in Turnberry at the time?

Does anyone else have any info on FE2D - Colony of Mauritius - No 15 Serial No. A6527, built by Boulton & Paul Ltd at Norwich.

"This aeroplane saw operational service with No 20 Sqn in France; its crew (2Lt R M Trevethan & Lt C A Hoy) was credited with victories over Albatroses on 8 and 9 August 1917. "

Butlers records are in about 60 pages in the archives at Kew, but there is not a lot of detail about his day to day work.

I will attach a photo in case someone can clarify for me if he was posted to any squadrons in France during his service.

I know contempory newspaper reports and info from family journals state that he flew in France, but i cant find any evidence.

Any tips from the experts?

Cheers,

Les

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The search continues.

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Tried to follow this up from a different direction. The capture of a U boat was a fairly rare event so an action in which two were captured ought to stand out but I can't find any mention of such. Does anyone have any details?

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Les

Like Centurion, I too tried to find something on the capture of two U-boats, but without success. There's nothing that I could see in the appropriate volume of The War in the Air. I also had a skim through the editions of the Adelaide Advertiser in July-August 1917 at: http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home (I'm assuming that Capt Butler was from SA, and his deeds would have been written up in the Adelaide paper) but I couldn't find anything. The search wasn't helped by the State Treasurer of the day being named Butler, and frequently appearing in the paper.

In July-September 1917 No 49 Sqn RFC was based at Swingate Down; it was formed there on 15 April 1916 and remained until it moved to La Bellevue in France on 12 November 1917.

Regards

Gareth

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GAreth, it seems to be likely that the second one you mentioned was the one in my photo. This would make sense if Butler flew it in June 1917. Looking at the photos in the CCI article i quoted before, it looks slightly different to the one i have.

I don't know if this is the same photo as in the C&C journal but here is one of A5761 when it was with No 97 squadron (which incidentally formed on 1st December 1917). It does look different to the photo of the aircraft in your original post.

Steve

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Thanks everyone for your contributions.

It definately looks like the FE2d photo i have with Captain Butler was the Colony of Mauritius - No 15 Serial No. A6527, built by Boulton & Paul Ltd at Norwich and based from no 20 Squadron.

It seems that BUtler must have attached himself to that sqn for a period to keep his skills up. I saw a few contempory newspaper articles including an interview with him on his return where he said instructors often did that.

Is this something that others have heard of instructors doing?

I would still like to know the history of this FE2D though? Has anyone a copy of the recent CCI book on this aircraft. If so can you let me know if it is worth buying one and shipping it to Australia?

How would i find out if Butler was attached at some time to 20 sqn? I did not see it in his records but i got a third party to locate them at the archives and send them through.

ON his records, looking at the document attached, it it correct to assume his postings were as follows

Joined RFC - 17/6/16 - Oxford - School of Instruction.

Joined 27 RS, Gosport - 2/7/16

Joined 49 sqn, Dover - 27/7/16

Joined 10 RS - Joyce Green 16/8/16 ( i also have several letters from this time addressed from the School of Aerial Gunnery, Hythe - could he have gone across temporarily for a gunnery course?)

Joined no 2 S.A.G - Turnberry - 28/2/17 - ( although i have some photos and letters stating he flew a FE2b on the 22/1/17 - the first to land at Turnberry)

Am i correct in interpreting the document as such?

I am trying to piece it all together for a publication on Butler, as although he has been descibed as the most well known and recognisable person in South Australia in the 1919 - 1922 period, he has largely been forgotton by all but the locals of his home town, his family, air historians and airmail collectors.

He had an incredible, albiet short career, with lots of interesting experiences.

He flew the first airmail over water in the Southern Hemispere, took the Governor up on a flight, meet Prince Edward on the 1920 Royal visit, etc.

I also found an old interview with him where he describes being 1/4 of a mile away from Leefe-Robinson near Joyce Green on the morning of the 3rd Sept 1916 and saw him attack the airship and bring in down ( the first to be brought down and he was awarded the VC several days later) Butler talks about luck playing a part in events such as that and that he and others in his flight were almost in a position to attack it.

In regards to the German subs, i have also looked for references in newspapers and the internet, but cant find anything. His letter is very specific, and talks about being decorated for it (MID). In his records though it mentions being mentioned in despatches, but this was in March 1918. Could he have been MID more than once?

Its hard to chase it down from Adelaide when all the records are in the UK.

Anyway, any further help on Butler, or the FE2D, A6527, would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Les

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Has anyone a copy of the recent CCI book on this aircraft. If so can you let me know if it is worth buying one and shipping it to Australia?

Les

I have a copy of the book, and it is very good. However, I've posted all the information that's in it on the aircraft you're interested in. The book includes the names of aircrew involved in significant missions, and Capt H Butler isn't mentioned.

If you're researching an Australian who flew in the War, you can join kindred souls at: http://www.ww1aero.org.au/

Regards

Gareth

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From July 1917 no 20 sqdn was the only RFC unit operating the FE2d in France, 57 having given up the type in June and  no 25 reequipping with DH4s in July so Butler would have to be involved ith 20 if he was flying the type on operations in France

The only reference I can fin to FE2s and submarines is to no 36 sqdn which used them in anti sub patrols in 1918 ans successfully bombed UC49 in May of that year forcing her to rmain surfaced in which state she was sunk by a desroyer

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The excellent website www.uboat.net gives a complete listing of all U boat fates. Only 2 were lost in June 1917 and neither matches Butler's date. There is nothing of note in the activities of Luce Bay for June 1917, yet I'd have thought that its airships would have been involved in any anti-submarine activity around the North Channel.

FE2b A6527 was a machine on which we could find little when compiling the serial listing. It would have been delivered during the first week of June 1917 and while, it is conceivable that it went to Turnberry, FE2ds with their RR engines were too valuable a commodity to be issued for training at that stage.

I'm wondering whether the Captain Anderson was GN Anderson who had served in 11 Sqn on FE2bs and the with 45 RS at South Carlton, before a posting to 2 (Aux) SAG in May 1917, a posting that lasted until November. He went on to rejoin the BEF with 73 Sqn, on Camels, and upon posting to Home Establishment, joined 2 FS at Marske, where Butler was serving. I've copies of Anderson's 2 logbooks, but he didn't bother to make any entries for his time in Scotland. The flights with 11 Sqn & 45 RS are well recorded, as are those for 73 Sqn and 2 FS - sod's law.

The pic of A5761 was taken at Norwich, probably during its acceptance tests, and not Netheravon, 115 Sqn's home. The camouflage style (similar to that applied to some German WW2 tanks) visible on the hangar was peculiar to that station.

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Les,

I've searched through archives of The Times newspaper for the period 25 June to 5 July 1917, and although there are several articles about marine losses resulting from attacks by submarines, there is no reference to the capture of even one, let alone two submarines. Given the positive spin placed on even small military successes had such an event occurred it would have made the front page.

The other question to ask is how a crew based at a SCHOOL of Aerial Gunnery would have carried sufficient munitions to achieve such feats. Turnberry is on the west coast of Scotland and overlooks the approach to Glasgow, so I suppose that stretch of sea would have been a good hunting ground for submarines - but are there any records of submarine activity in the area? Once again The Times carries no reports of any submarine activity here.

Brian

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The phrase this "is one of the leading battle planes of the RFC" is odd given the date when the FE2d was all but withdrawn from daylight combat missions.

The aircraft in the photo appears to be a late production version (raised combing around pilot's cockpit and lack of nose wheel) and the flare rack visible would suggest that it was one of the 23 allocated for Home Defence in 1917 and used by 33, 36 and 78 squadrons. I think the vane sight is the Neame sight (an adaption of the Norman sight for night work against bombers) which would support this. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, 36 did use the type for anti sub patrols but not until in 1918 and  from Seaton Carew.

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He had an incredible, albiet short career, with lots of interesting experiences.

He flew the first airmail over water in the Southern Hemispere, took the Governor up on a flight, meet Prince Edward on the 1920 Royal visit, etc.

Could be wrong but wasn't the first air mail over the water in the Southern Hemisphere carried out out of Tasmania by a guy called Long? I thought Butlers was the first in South Australia

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I don't know if this is a red herring, but the 26 July 1917 issue of Flight carried the following item:

"It was announced in the London Gazette for 20 July that the following decorations and medals are given for services in action with enemy submarines:

Distinguished Service Cross

Flight-Lt J E A Hoare RNAS

Flight Sub-Lt W L Anderson RNAS"

Butler's MiD appears in the 21 March 1918 issue of Flight.

Brian

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Could be wrong but wasn't the first air mail over the water in the Southern Hemisphere carried out out of Tasmania by a guy called Long? I thought Butlers was the first in South Australia

Hi all and thanks for your interest in this topic,

I agree that it seems like it would have been a big deal if 2 German subs were captured and i cant seem to find any references other than Butlers original letter in witch the photo was attached of the FE2d. Cant exactly just ask someone who was there either.

"The aircraft in the photo appears to be a late production version (raised combing around pilot's cockpit and lack of nose wheel) and the flare rack visible would suggest that it was one of the 23 allocated for Home Defence in 1917 and used by 33, 36 and 78 squadrons. " - This seems to fit with the timing of the letter in June 1917, in England rather than France, and could explain why Butler who was attached to No. 2 SAG was elsewhere, trying to build his experience to bring back to pupils in Turnberry?

Not sure on this one.

There has been many references from the family and the local newspapers ststing that butler did 7 or so trips attaching himself to operational squadrons while at Turnberry and MArske. HE was also wounded while flying over Duoai and just made it back to allied lines - again from contempory reports and newspapers.

The letter did not have the envelope with the senders address which would have been handy to see where he was at the time.

I will chase up the GN Anderson info - Thanks Mick. Looks like they would have been together at 2 SAG, Turnberry and then again at Marske.

In regards to the airmail flights - Butler did his from ADelaide to Minlaton on the Yorke Peninsula, across Gulf St Vincent ( 67 miles) on the 6th August, 1919, in the Bristol M1c (C5001).

It looks like Athur Long (another ex RFC pilot) shipped a Boulted Paul Biplane to Tasmania on the 20th Sept 1919 and after some early flights he did a crossing of Bass Strait from Launceston to Torquay in Victoria on the 16th or 17th December 1919.

Am i correct in my interpreting of the war records i attached to an earlier post?

I also have copies of a heap of planes with Butler sitting in or standing in front of i would love to get advice on the type etc if OK with the forum members.

I will attach one to this post.

Cheers Lespost-51721-1262468883.jpgpost-51721-1262468902.jpg

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Both are BE2es (single bay mainplanes and aileron connecting struts). I suspect SAG at Hythe, which had several interesting colour schemes on its BEs during 1917. Interesting stripes on the undercarriage struts.

The FE2d's Lewis doesn't have a Neame illuminated sight. The foresight is the compensating one (for airflow). Neame sights had a battery attached to the gun, a notched and illuminated rear sight and an illuminated bead foresight. There is a suggestion of a hill in the background to the photo (none near Seaton) plus several Bessonneau hangars, not at Seaton in 1917 and those erected in 1918 would have had the Tees estuary in the background, if such a photograph had been taken there. There isn't a flare rack. The fittings under the nacelle are the footstep and the fuel supply's propeller pump. Discount 36 Sqn.

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Both are BE2es (single bay mainplanes and aileron connecting struts). I suspect SAG at Hythe, which had several interesting colour schemes on its BEs during 1917. Interesting stripes on the undercarriage struts.

The FE2d's Lewis doesn't have a Neame illuminated sight. The foresight is the compensating one (for airflow). Neame sights had a battery attached to the gun, a notched and illuminated rear sight and an illuminated bead foresight. There is a suggestion of a hill in the background to the photo (none near Seaton) plus several Bessonneau hangars, not at Seaton in 1917 and those erected in 1918 would have had the Tees estuary in the background, if such a photograph had been taken there. There isn't a flare rack. The fittings under the nacelle are the footstep and the fuel supply's propeller pump. Discount 36 Sqn.

 The flare rack is under the wing. The early version of the Neam was based on the Norman vane sight but had a different shape vane and the front sight was not illuminated but used a luminous bead. The notched rear sight was on the Hutton not the Neam

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I also found an old interview with him where he describes being 1/4 of a mile away from Leefe-Robinson near Joyce Green on the morning of the 3rd Sept 1916 and saw him attack the airship and bring in down ( the first to be brought down and he was awarded the VC several days later) Butler talks about luck playing a part in events such as that and that he and others in his flight were almost in a position to attack it.

I suspect Butler was 'shooting a line'  The "Air Defence of Britain 1914 -1918" lists all the pilots who flew sorties that night. Butler is not amongst them. The two pilots who were able to see S11 in flames from nearby were Mackay and Hunt of 39 squadron. MacKay was within half a mile.  Both had spotted SL 11 and flew towards it but neither actually saw Leefe Robinson make the attack in the dark, the first they knew was when the airship burst into flames.  MacKay was the one over Joyce Green.

I wonder if the 2 subs captured was also a slight exaggeration.

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 The flare rack is under the wing. The early version of the Neam was based on the Norman vane sight but had a different shape vane and the front sight was not illuminated but used a luminous bead. The notched rear sight was on the Hutton not the Neam

You're quite correct about the Hutton sight - apologies, but I still don't think we're looking at an illuminated sight - the rear ring sight is relatively small compared to that shown in photos of machines with the Neame sight but matches the size of those fitted to BFs etc used in France. That under the wing is a bomb rib. Yes, light night bombing squadrons in France used them to carry Michelin flares, as well as 25-lb, 100-lb and 112-lb bombs but the ribs were a factory fitment on later FEs. I've looked at a lot of FE photos in the last 2 years and the only flare equipment I've seen on HD FEs was the flare chute installed in the observer's cockpit and projecting through the floor; parchute flares were ignited electronically as they passed through the chute.

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The more I look at Captain Butler I find there is less about him than meets the eye. The Air Defence of Britain 1914 -1918 contains comprehensive details of all RFC, RNAS and RAF sorties and he isn't there at all, not one sortie. And yet I've seen accounts that state that he flew such missions. There was a Christopher Butler (in the RNAS) who flew an awful lot. Similarly at least one Australian biog states that he was awarded the AFC in 1918 and I can't find him in the Gazette. I can find a list of those awarded AFCs in 1918 and he isn't in it. I would be happy to be proved wrong but the name Walter Mitty comes to mind.

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"I suspect Butler was 'shooting a line' The "Air Defence of Britain 1914 -1918" lists all the pilots who flew sorties that night. Butler is not amongst them. The two pilots who were able to see S11 in flames from nearby were Mackay and Hunt of 39 squadron. MacKay was within half a mile. Both had spotted SL 11 and flew towards it but neither actually saw Leefe Robinson make the attack in the dark, the first they knew was when the airship burst into flames. MacKay was the one over Joyce Green.

I wonder if the 2 subs captured was also a slight exaggeration."

Thanks Centurion, He may well have value added to his experiences in the UK and its hard to get the exact facts when i am relying on letters from him, annecdotes from family ( who where imensely proud of his achievements) and newspaper reports in Adelaide, when they were keen to make the story as good as possible.

In saying that, there are some things that add weight to his stories. HE was stationed at Joyce Green at the time and several letters from him talk about chasing German planes and Zepplins over the general area. He was also apparently quite well thought of and helped start up the Turnberry school with Lieutenant-Colonel Richard BELL-IRVING and Louis Strange ( according to google searches etc - can anyone confirm this)

HE became very famous in Adelaide on his return and my feel for him is that he did not need to exaggerate his deeds too much as his stunt flying and help with all types of repatraition causes and peace loan flights spoke for themselves.

Could he have been on a training or home defence flight that night? He had only passed out from the Oxford school a month or 2 before.

The following is the quote in the Adelaide Advertiser when interviewed shortly after his arrival back on home soil.

"In April. 1916, he arrived in England, and joined the Royal Flying Corps. After a little time spent in traning

he was put on home defence work,and was stationed at Joyce-Green, on the Thames. His duties were to patrol with,

others on the London side of the Thames,and to keep a look-out for raiding aircraft.

He was one of a company on patrol duty 'When Robinson got a big Zeppelin, and was within a quarter of a mile of the monster when it was successfully attacked.

"If.any of the rest of us had the luck to be a quarter of a mile nearer the good fortune of bringing it

down might have fallen to that one,"' he said.

"You see how much luck has to do with it.'' Tlie captain saw the Zeppelin brought down, and, of course, he

experienced some minutes of intense excitement."

I am going to the National Trust museum in MInlaton to access his personal photo album and give a talk to the members on Thursday, so hopefully i will have some more info then.

His album is in a glass display cabinet and closed so i have not seen inside, but apparently has lots of war photos with notations on the side of each photo. I hope this may answer a few questions.

Also thanks for the info on the planes, it has given me a far better understanding of the planes he flew. I saw in one document in his file that he had flown 21 different type of aircraft. This was in November 1917, only 16 months after joining the RFC. Was this typical of instructors who had access to many aircraft?

Can i also add several other photos to get some plane ID's from the experts please.

Many thanks,

Les

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Another photo or 2.

Does anyone recognise any of the other people in the photos?

I can email bigger pics if people want and send me thier email address.

As far as the AFC, it is in the New Years Day Gazzette for 1919, and is mentioned in his service records. (Attached)

The original medal resides in a house just down the road from me and i have some good photos of it along with his other WW1 medals, MiD leaves, etc.

Cheers,

Les

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