Was your ancestor gassed?

[Sue Light]

Locomotor Ataxia, neither caused nor aggravated by service.

Sue

[imd6662]

Interesting discussion.

FWIW my grandfather was also gassed and died in about 1945, presumably of lingering effects.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Are you still only interested in examples with documented evidence ie. death certificate?

[Hector]

My Grandfather was gassed in WW1, 1918.

On his death cert 1962 it states :-

cardiac failiure due to chronic Bronchitis and Emmphysema as a result of service in the 1914/18 war, Misadventure

[Sue Light]

I haven't seen much reference to cigarette smoking yet. As a major cause of lung disease and coronary heart disease, I wonder how it's possible to disregard the massive cult of smoking among soldiers. It's so easy to quote 'gassing' (dramatic) and ignore the self-inflicted damage caused by smoking (mundane).

Sue

[Graham Stewart]

My great grandfather Gnr Moses Francis was gassed 1918(?) and survived. Family stories say he virtually lost the use of one lung and was treated regularly by his local doctor with 'snake serum' of all things.

He originally worked at the cokeovens at the local colliery Langley Moor before the war and after the war took a job at Consett Steel Works. However the job was short lived due to effects of sulphur in the air which often caused him to be quite ill.

[arghjac]

Locomotor Ataxia, neither caused nor aggravated by service.

Sue

Hi Sue, since your response was posted I've been searching feverishly for the entry which my memory tells me was unequivocally 'gassed' but to date I can't find it. I'm hoping this isn't a problem of my own advancing age. I'll be back in touch.

RobbyJ

Robby,

Just out of curiosity could you please tell me where in your relatives records it says "gassed". I can't seem to see it, unless of course, you have mistaken "Cas", as in "Casualty", with Gas.

I would have thought some research into the reason for his demobilisation may be more productive. I believe the second word is ataxia, but cannot make out the first word. Whether this was caused, or was aggravated, by the war is another question.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, since your response was posted I've been searching feverishly for the entry which my memory tells me was unequivocally 'gassed' but to date I can't find it. I'm hoping this isn't a problem of my own advancing age. I'll be back in touch.

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

Are you still only interested in examples with documented evidence ie. death certificate?

Hi Jonathan, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

My great grandfather Gnr Moses Francis was gassed 1918(?) and survived. Family stories say he virtually lost the use of one lung and was treated regularly by his local doctor with 'snake serum' of all things.

He originally worked at the cokeovens at the local colliery Langley Moor before the war and after the war took a job at Consett Steel Works. However the job was short lived due to effects of sulphur in the air which often caused him to be quite ill.

Hi Graham, thanks for the info. everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

[arghjac]

I haven't seen much reference to cigarette smoking yet. As a major cause of lung disease and coronary heart disease, I wonder how it's possible to disregard the massive cult of smoking among soldiers. It's so easy to quote 'gassing' (dramatic) and ignore the self-inflicted damage caused by smoking (mundane).

Sue

Hi Sue, we certainly haven't disregarded the effects of these 'self-inflicted' causes of disease, nor tried to dramatise 'gassing', nor ignored the flu epidemic at the end of the war. Unfortunately, the same wasn't the case in respect of the treatment that was inflicted upon these returning soldiers many of whom were suffering from psychiatric trauma and pulmonary symptoms that our government tried to pass off as malingering. I'm also not saying that there weren't malingerers but it does seem that actual physical injury was dealt with so differently than these equally debilitating illnesses.

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

Hi Robby,

Is your research question going to be broader than the above? You may certainly find more than you expect if you keep the question broad, i.e., not limit it to chronic tuberculosis. My grandfather was gassed but died of chronic myocarditis/rheumatic heart disease, which could be related to either his being gassed or contracting Typhoid on the Eastern Front.

As an aside, how are you determining who is eligible to take part in the research? For example, my grandfather was gassed per the family oral history, but I have no paperwork to prove it per se. I can prove the Typhoid from his service record.

I also hope you will share your results with the rest of us when you are done.

-Daniel

Hi Daniel, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

My Grandfather was gassed in WW1, 1918.

On his death cert 1962 it states :-

cardiac failiure due to chronic Bronchitis and Emmphysema as a result of service in the 1914/18 war, Misadventure

Hi Hector, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

[arghjac]

RobbyJ, who is the "our" as in your "our PhD study", and which university if you don't mind me asking?

Hi Chris, I'm not sure if I replied when I first received your message, so just in case, We are attached to the Open University where I am an Associate Lecturer but no approach has been made for any research with any university, as yet we are only carrying out a feasability study. My very significant 'other' is my wife Susan who if the investigation does take off may well introduce herself formally to the forum.

RobbyJ

A fair question

My Great Uncle was gassed as per written family history & died of pulmonary heart disease in 1920. No service record to prove the gassing but a death cert to show his "given" cause of death.

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

[arghjac]

I have one who, according to family history, was gassed. He suffered from Bronchitis in mid to late 1918 and died in 1919 from cancer of the throat.

Hi squirrel, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

RobbyJ.

[arghjac]

I think the only way you could attempt this is to go through the Pension records in PIN26 and PIN82 at TNA. The date of death of the former-soldier receiving the pension is usually noted. If they were given a pension for a gas-related injury then you have some potential link, although I think to be sure you would have to check their death certificate. None of this is online so it means archive research, and lots of it, as one would expect from a history related MPhil/PhD - and costly research with the death certificates involved. There's never an easy route when you are covering new ground, and I suspect the amount of work involved here is why no-one has covered this before.

Thanks Paul, I've noted this. Thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration. By the way, do you know if the Pension Records in Ancestry.Com a full set in relation to PIN26 & 82?

Regards

Rob.

Both of my Grandfathers were gassed and they both died of heart failure in their 90's

Hi Steenie, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

[Jim_Grundy]

RobbyJ

My great uncle was gassed, dying in January 1922 as a result. He's the latest inclusion on the local war memorial. There are some others from my local area whose post-war deaths were attributed to their gassing, including one whose family specifically recorded the fact on his grave. Would you like a photograph of the grave?

Actually, there's probably nearly nearly as many locals whose health suffered after the war as a result of contracting malaria, chiefly in Greece and and Mesopotamia. Presume they're beyond the scope of your research, malaria not being particularly Great War-specific!

For general context into the experience of disabled veterans between the wars in the U.K. and Germany, take a look at Deborah Coren's, "The War Come Home. Disabled Veterans in Britain and Germany 1914-1939", University of California Press, Berkley, 2001.

Regards,

Jim

[arghjac]

Researching this topic is possible because someone has already done something similar using a sample of pension records: First World War Gassed Veterans, 1916-1978 (results from Uk Data Archive).

Hi Gavin, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

Hi,

Here's the website on Gas Warfare I was thinking of:

Maybe something of use in there?

-Daniel

Thanks Daniel, a very interesting link. I'm investigating.

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

Good luck with your investigation. I fear that only part of your difficulty will be deciding who was gassed. Many hundreds of thousands of troops on the Western front were exposed to gas. In chatting to soldiers who served in the Great War, it was fairly obvious that it was rare for a soldier not to have been affected in some way. This varied from a whiff of gas which was not more than an annoyance through temporary incapacity of days or weeks, to death. Mustard gas could affect people badly without being inhaled. Another problem for you will be that tuberculosis was endemic in Britain until well after WW2. So well entrenched in the population was it that it was detected commonly in school children in late '40s, early '50s.

Oops! Hit the wrong key.

With two such large and non exclusive classes drawn from the population, any intersection will be attributable to several causes. I am at a loss to see how you will show any causative relation between gas and TB.

Hi Truthergw, thanks for the information, we already recognise the enormity of the task, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Robby.

My Grandfather was gassed in Belgium in WW1 and for the remainder of his life was permanently 'crying' because his tear glands/ducts were so badly dmaged and affected.

He died aged 86 in 1982.

Hi Paul, thanks for the information, everything is in flux at the moment as I can find neither my own or my wife's grandfathers gassing data in detail. Without them it would seem difficult to believe that we can get firm and detailed data on other soldiers experience. We're not giving up yet but hoping for some inspiration.

Regards

Rob.

[arghjac]

Hi Susanj and Robby. If, as you say, this constituent increased the likelihood of contracting TB then we should expect to see a large increase in the incidence of TB after the war as the fit young men grew older and started to die of various natural causes. In particular, we ought to see a much higher incidence of TB in old men who served on the Western front, as opposed to women and those who did not serve. I remember well the days of TB. I remember the mass x-ray campaigns and hearing the news that this or that relation or schoolfriend had ' a shadow on the lung'. That was the layman's word for a suspected pulmonary infection. I remember the treatment consisting of total bedrest for months in a variety of wards designed for maximum fresh air. Chalets with one wall missing and waterproof covers on the beds. The chalets were rotated to face away from the wind. Severe cases required collapsing of the infected lung. Then the gradual introduction of anti-biotics which finally made the sanatoria redundant. I do not recall that the TB sanatoria which existed in every fair sized city were particularly overloaded with great War veterans. It seemed to me that youngsters were a large proportion of the patients.

Hi again truthergw, our earlier research mainly suggested that 'gassing' per se lowered resistance but 'mustard gas' itself has certainly proven to be a carcenogenic, which of course again relates to smoking etc. We just have to see if we can detect whether the effects may have been significant and whether other possible contributory effects can be filtered out.

RobbyJ

Researching this topic is possible because someone has already done something similar using a sample of pension records: First World War Gassed Veterans, 1916-1978 (results from Uk Data Archive).

Thanks Gavin, Noted.

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

Please be cautious about assuming that no other family members were infected. This is possible, but it is also likely that other family members were infected and did not develop clinical disease. TB was common, and not everyone manifested the disease. Are you thinking that somehow the gas exposure predisposed to TB?

Robert

Hi Robert, our peliminary investigation is whether the effects of gassing was in fact significant, in that we now know that gassing per se actually lowers the body's resistance to disease.

RobbyJ

[qahtan]

Not sure if this is the right place for me to add my 2 cents worth, but here goes.

My father was gassed in WW1, and as a result developed TB, of which he died in 1943.

a couple years ago I was diagnosed with Addisons desease, in the 3 weeks I was in hospital numerous questions were asked about my family as to what could be the reason for it, I said that my father had died of TB and the Doctor is almost sure that my Addisons is a result of the TB that my father had..... I am now 75....

qahtan

[arghjac]

Not sure if this is the right place for me to add my 2 cents worth, but here goes.

My father was gassed in WW1, and as a result developed TB, of which he died in 1943.

a couple years ago I was diagnosed with Addisons desease, in the 3 weeks I was in hospital numerous questions were asked about my family as to what could be the reason for it, I said that my father had died of TB and the Doctor is almost sure that my Addisons is a result of the TB that my father had..... I am now 75....

qahtan

Hi qahtan, thanks for the information, I'll look into Addisons disease and see what I can make of it. Hope that it isn't causing you too much trouble.

I'm 62 now and I have broken both shoulders, one playing rugby, the other judo; my knee's are being washed out because of torn cartilages caused by sports injuries, my spine has two inserts caused by rugby/football, so I suppose I have exercise disease? You don't see that in the text books do you?

Anyway, I just think how lucky we are that we didn't face the things that those poor ******* faced.

If I could spring, i'd have a spring in my step.

Regards

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

Hi qahtan, thanks for the information, I'll look into Addisons disease and see what I can make of it. Hope that it isn't causing you too much trouble.

I'm 62 now and I have broken both shoulders, one playing rugby, the other judo; my knee's are being washed out because of torn cartilages caused by sports injuries, my spine has two inserts caused by rugby/football, so I suppose I have exercise disease? You don't see that in the text books do you?

Anyway, I just think how lucky we are that we didn't face the things that those poor lads faced.

If I could spring, i'd have a spring in my step.

Regards

RobbyJ

Well that was very interesting, you are quite right that TB is recognised as a possible predator with regard to adrenal function and yet you are well outside the normal age range of the disease, 30-50. At least from this few minutes of research I can tell you that Addison's disease is eminently treatable.

Long life and happiness

Regards

Robby J

[qahtan]

Hi Robby.

Yes I understand that Addisons is quite rare.My Doc say's I will not die of t but will die with it, At the moment he is jiggling about with Prednesone trying to adjust the amount of cortizone I need t make up for what the adrenal glands are not doing.

This I suppose is part of the joy's of getting old.....;-))))) qahtan