Was your ancestor gassed?

[arghjac]

My own Grandfather and my partner's Grandfather were both gassed during the first world war. When they both died some years later their death certificates said they died of Pulmonary tuberculosis.

Pulmonary tuberculosis is highly contagious yet no-one in either family was ever infected.

If your ancestor was gassed and later died of tuberculosis would you please contact me at arghjac@yahoo.co.uk I ensure complete confidentiality.

Your information would form part of our Phd study.

Regards and a very merry christmas

RobbyJ

[ph0ebus]

Hi Robby,

Is your research question going to be broader than the above? You may certainly find more than you expect if you keep the question broad, i.e., not limit it to chronic tuberculosis. My grandfather was gassed but died of chronic myocarditis/rheumatic heart disease, which could be related to either his being gassed or contracting Typhoid on the Eastern Front.

As an aside, how are you determining who is eligible to take part in the research? For example, my grandfather was gassed per the family oral history, but I have no paperwork to prove it per se. I can prove the Typhoid from his service record.

I also hope you will share your results with the rest of us when you are done.

-Daniel

[centurion]

My grandfather was both gassed and contracted trench fever and was invalided out in 1918. He died in about 1939 and according to my mother this was due to a lung related illness, however I have no official paperwork. 

[Chris_Baker]

RobbyJ, who is the "our" as in your "our PhD study", and which university if you don't mind me asking?

[Ceinwen]

Robby

Just sent you an email re my grandad.

Regards

Ceinwen Scales

[Ice Tiger]

As an aside, how are you determining who is eligible to take part in the research? For example, my grandfather was gassed per the family oral history, but I have no paperwork to prove it per se.

A fair question

My Great Uncle was gassed as per written family history & died of pulmonary heart disease in 1920. No service record to prove the gassing but a death cert to show his "given" cause of death.

Andy

[squirrel]

I have one who, according to family history, was gassed. He suffered from Bronchitis in mid to late 1918 and died in 1919 from cancer of the throat.

[arghjac]

Hi Robby,

Is your research question going to be broader than the above? You may certainly find more than you expect if you keep the question broad, i.e., not limit it to chronic tuberculosis. My grandfather was gassed but died of chronic myocarditis/rheumatic heart disease, which could be related to either his being gassed or contracting Typhoid on the Eastern Front.

As an aside, how are you determining who is eligible to take part in the research? For example, my grandfather was gassed per the family oral history, but I have no paperwork to prove it per se. I can prove the Typhoid from his service record.

I also hope you will share your results with the rest of us when you are done.

-Daniel

Hi Daniel, thanks for the reply. I'm answering all of questions left by other interested parties in your reply and then pasting them into each of the replies. So, I'm sorry if i'm answering a question you hadn't asked. Also I'm trying to add a little more depth to the information that is in the first question I posed and the study as a whole,

Firstly, the term 'our' in the original question relates to my other half 'Susan' who is like me an academic teacher in fields other than 'History/WW1' me a University lecturer in Law/Science and Susan a teacher in Science. We had hoped to approach the Open University to oversee the study.

As you can see looking at this meagre post, even including those that have contacted my e-mail address separately, I will have to refine both the question I'm asking and also the thinking behind it.

Initially, our thinking was about 'recognition', or the lack of it, that our grandfathers had been as damaged by the war (gassing) as someone who had been shot or drowned but they not only endured a horrible health life after the war but died of diseases that might well have been just a bug. Some of our loved ones were lucky enough to draw a meagre pension. My grandfathers pension wouldn't have kept a cat let alone a family of 7, so my Grandma had to take in washing and attended/cleaned the local town toilets, whilst the kids collected empty glass jars and bottles to collect the deposit. Just remind ourselves that this was in order to live. He joined up in 1897 lying about his age and died in 1932 coughing his guts up, from an illness that the authorities argued might well have been caused by the squalor in which he lived. Yet none of his children, friends or his wife ever caught the illness. I thought it suspicious but unfortunately on reflection the study is not really very effective. Although it is almost irrefutable that 'mustard gas' along with all of the other effects, destroys white blood cells and therefore lowers the bodies ability to fight infection, the authorities didn't know this and even if they had what could they have done other than try and lower the hardship that many families faced. Therefore it is hard to argue effectively that the authorities failed in a duty of care. But it still comes back to the fact that many thousands on both sides suffered and died horrifically from injuries that had been caused by the war and were not recognised officially.

Any Phd study to be successful must add to the bank of knowledge. At first I thought that this idea would be able to accomplish this as well as bringing recognition to our loved ones who had given so much. Unfortunately, I have come to see that the evidence in regard to army records actually detailing gassing are in a lot of cases destroyed and pension records almost impossible to find. Death certificates are so difficult to access that they would have to be obtained by individuals interested enough to participate. I recognise that I have only posted on this site once but after a month of research I have only four examples of records strong enough to support the original supposition. So unless there is someone out there that has any ideas on how to access this information easily and cheaply I'm afraid its a non-starter.

If you or anyone has any ideas please post a reply or contact me on arghjac@yahoo.co.uk.

Regards

And a Happy New Year to everyone.

RobbyJ

[arghjac]

My grandfather was both gassed and contracted trench fever and was invalided out in 1918. He died in about 1939 and according to my mother this was due to a lung related illness, however I have no official paperwork.

Hi Centurian, thanks for the reply. I'm answering all of questions left by other interested parties in your reply and then pasting them into each of the replies. So, I'm sorry if i'm answering a question you hadn't asked. Also I'm trying to add a little more depth to the information that is in the first question I posed and the study as a whole,

Firstly, the term 'our' in the original question relates to my other half 'Susan' who is like me an academic teacher in fields other than 'History/WW1' me a University lecturer in Law/Science and Susan a teacher in Science. We had hoped to approach the Open University to oversee the study.

As you can see looking at this meagre post, even including those that have contacted my e-mail address separately, I will have to refine both the question I'm asking and also the thinking behind it.

Initially, our thinking was about 'recognition', or the lack of it, that our grandfathers had been as damaged by the war (gassing) as someone who had been shot or drowned but they not only endured a horrible health life after the war but died of diseases that might well have been just a bug. Some of our loved ones were lucky enough to draw a meagre pension. My grandfathers pension wouldn't have kept a cat let alone a family of 7, so my Grandma had to take in washing and attended/cleaned the local town toilets, whilst the kids collected empty glass jars and bottles to collect the deposit. Just remind ourselves that this was in order to live. He joined up in 1897 lying about his age and died in 1932 coughing his guts up, from an illness that the authorities argued might well have been caused by the squalor in which he lived. Yet none of his children, friends or his wife ever caught the illness. I thought it suspicious but unfortunately on reflection the study is not really very effective. Although it is almost irrefutable that 'mustard gas' along with all of the other effects, destroys white blood cells and therefore lowers the bodies ability to fight infection, the authorities didn't know this and even if they had what could they have done other than try and lower the hardship that many families faced. Therefore it is hard to argue effectively that the authorities failed in a duty of care. But it still comes back to the fact that many thousands on both sides suffered and died horrifically from injuries that had been caused by the war and were not recognised officially.

Any Phd study to be successful must add to the bank of knowledge. At first I thought that this idea would be able to accomplish this as well as bringing recognition to our loved ones who had given so much. Unfortunately, I have come to see that the evidence in regard to army records actually detailing gassing are in a lot of cases destroyed and pension records almost impossible to find. Death certificates are so difficult to access that they would have to be obtained by individuals interested enough to participate. I recognise that I have only posted on this site once but after a month of research I have only four examples of records strong enough to support the original supposition. So unless there is someone out there that has any ideas on how to access this information easily and cheaply I'm afraid its a non-starter.

If you or anyone has any ideas please post a reply or contact me on arghjac@yahoo.co.uk.

Regards

And a Happy New Year to everyone.

RobbyJ

[ph0ebus]

Hi Robby J,

Thanks for the in-depth reply. Indeed, research such as this is fraught with pitfalls, and may be next to impossible, but may be doable if done right. Now, as to what that means, well, I am not sure I am the one to say, but I do recall that there is some literature on the effects of chemical warfare going back to that era. I also recall a website to that effect and I will see if I can scare up the URL. By looking at what has already been done you may see a clearer path for what you want to accomplish.

Getting back to the sample you will be using, you may not need to discard all participants that cannot prove on paper that they had been gassed but the documentation or lack thereof may be part of the analysis and wrap-up. Of course, you wold need to be on the lookout for other potential confounding variables.

Out of curiosity, for the other cases besides the four that supported your original supposition, what did they tell you, if anything?

-Daniel

[Paul Reed]

I think the only way you could attempt this is to go through the Pension records in PIN26 and PIN82 at TNA. The date of death of the former-soldier receiving the pension is usually noted. If they were given a pension for a gas-related injury then you have some potential link, although I think to be sure you would have to check their death certificate. None of this is online so it means archive research, and lots of it, as one would expect from a history related MPhil/PhD - and costly research with the death certificates involved. There's never an easy route when you are covering new ground, and I suspect the amount of work involved here is why no-one has covered this before.

[steenie]

Both of my Grandfathers were gassed and they both died of heart failure in their 90's

[saberhagen427]

Researching this topic is possible because someone has already done something similar using a sample of pension records: First World War Gassed Veterans, 1916-1978 (results from Uk Data Archive).

[ph0ebus]

Hi,

Here's the website on Gas Warfare I was thinking of:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/cs...ller/HELLER.asp

Maybe something of use in there?

-Daniel

[toto123]

My great unlce was gased and had previously remarked in his letters from the front how snifs of it didn't affect him! However a larger does got him on 30th October 1918 as he was involved in last pursuit of the Germans south of Valenciennes.

I have all his papers which state it was caused by the mustard gas but he recovered within weeks from being sent home. However i was told by my mother that he was advised to live in climate that would be kinder to his lungs and moved to South Africa. I alos have his last letter from there to my grandfather.In shaky writing he writes that he has been through a major operation and i beleive he died soon after. However as far as i know it wasn't due to gas or related illlness...not much help i'm afraid!

[arghjac]

Hi everyone, I'm off for a week for the new year celebrations, strangly enough to the Black Forest region. I'll think about all the issues you have brought up whilst I'm away. Happy New Year!!!

[nthornton1979]

My Great Grandad was gassed in 1918 and spent a few weeks out of the line as a result (as per service records)

He also suffered GSW on the Somme and was shot through the chest by a machine gun on Vimy Ridge. He returned, was gassed and then suffered GSW to the arm and buttock !

He was 22 when he joined and by some miracle he survived the war. (his brother did not)

Neil

[PhilB]

Certainly in the 40s, TB was a very common affliction and I imagine that it was even more common in the inter-war years. Older members will recall the "Spitting Strictly Prohibited" signs in buses designed as an anti-TB measure.

BY the way, what`s "Law/Science"?

[Bob Mitchell]

My Grandfather M.T. Alford Pte. 3680 RAMC was gassed early in the war survived and lived to age 88. He died when hit by a car crossing a road at night. The Autopsy showed that his vital organs were that of a 40 yr old man.

Yours Aye

Mitch

[Robert Dunlop]

Pulmonary tuberculosis is highly contagious yet no-one in either family was ever infected.

Please be cautious about assuming that no other family members were infected. This is possible, but it is also likely that other family members were infected and did not develop clinical disease. TB was common, and not everyone manifested the disease. Are you thinking that somehow the gas exposure predisposed to TB?

Robert

[Paul21455]

My Grandfather was gassed in Belgium in WW1 and for the remainder of his life was permanently 'crying' because his tear glands/ducts were so badly dmaged and affected.

He died aged 86 in 1982.

[truthergw]

Good luck with your investigation. I fear that only part of your difficulty will be deciding who was gassed. Many hundreds of thousands of troops on the Western front were exposed to gas. In chatting to soldiers who served in the Great War, it was fairly obvious that it was rare for a soldier not to have been affected in some way. This varied from a whiff of gas which was not more than an annoyance through temporary incapacity of days or weeks, to death. Mustard gas could affect people badly without being inhaled. Another problem for you will be that tuberculosis was endemic in Britain until well after WW2. So well entrenched in the population was it that it was detected commonly in school children in late '40s, early '50s.

Oops! Hit the wrong key.

With two such large and non exclusive classes drawn from the population, any intersection will be attributable to several causes. I am at a loss to see how you will show any causative relation between gas and TB.

[arghjac]

Please be cautious about assuming that no other family members were infected. This is possible, but it is also likely that other family members were infected and did not develop clinical disease. TB was common, and not everyone manifested the disease. Are you thinking that somehow the gas exposure predisposed to TB?

Robert

Hi, I've just got back to this thread after several months so please forgive me, I'll work through each of the messages over the next couple of days.

Robert, I've done some research for my MSs which included a study of cis-platin. This compound was mainly investigated in relation with cancer but the investigation turned up that it acted on cells much like mustard gassing did in the first world war. It is almost conclusive that 'gassing' and I must be careful about the term because different compounds were used, reduced the bodies immunity system. Now, it is really early days and I must be really careful not to jump to the conclusions that first led me to the study. Tuberculosis is highly contagious and I recognise that the population as a whole had various amounts of resistance to the disease but, if as we now know 'gassing' per se did lower immunity systems, did gassing have a significant effect and did these soldiers die of a disease that had a major contributory effect of their war service or did they die of a social disease? I can't deny where my heart is taking me but I do assure everyone that my 'Science' brain is leading the investigation.

I'm taking this opportunity to introduce my wife SusanJ to the forum as we hope to complete this investigation as a joint effort.

Regards to all and thank you for your contributions.

Robby and SusanJ

[truthergw]

Hi Susanj and Robby. If, as you say, this constituent increased the likelihood of contracting TB then we should expect to see a large increase in the incidence of TB after the war as the fit young men grew older and started to die of various natural causes. In particular, we ought to see a much higher incidence of TB in old men who served on the Western front, as opposed to women and those who did not serve. I remember well the days of TB. I remember the mass x-ray campaigns and hearing the news that this or that relation or schoolfriend had ' a shadow on the lung'. That was the layman's word for a suspected pulmonary infection. I remember the treatment consisting of total bedrest for months in a variety of wards designed for maximum fresh air. Chalets with one wall missing and waterproof covers on the beds. The chalets were rotated to face away from the wind. Severe cases required collapsing of the infected lung. Then the gradual introduction of anti-biotics which finally made the sanatoria redundant. I do not recall that the TB sanatoria which existed in every fair sized city were particularly overloaded with great War veterans. It seemed to me that youngsters were a large proportion of the patients.

[kevinrowlinson]

Robby,

Just out of curiosity could you please tell me where in your relatives records it says "gassed". I can't seem to see it, unless of course, you have mistaken "Cas", as in "Casualty", with Gas.

I would have thought some research into the reason for his demobilisation may be more productive. I believe the second word is ataxia, but cannot make out the first word. Whether this was caused, or was aggravated, by the war is another question.

Kevin