David B Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Something that has always puzzled me. If a guy gets a bar to whatever, what actually does he receive. Another gong of the same or just a little piece of medal to tack onto the original ribbon, plus citation. david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Hi David, The purpose of the bar to denote a second award was to get around the issue of a second medal. When the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal was instituted to reward service in the Crimea in the 1850s, there were a couple of recipients who recieved two medals for two separate acts of gallantry. Later, this was changed so that a bar emblem was awarded. Some medals have these fixed to the ribbon, but some have the fixed to the suspension bar. I will try to find a photo to illustrate this. Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 David, Here is a photo of the medal group awarded to Albert Jacka VC, MC and bar. You can see that the bar to the Military Cross is fixed to the ribbon. Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 I haven't been able to find a photo of a DCM with the bar attached to the suspension bar, but I'll keep looking. I resisted the temptation to show a photo of a campaign medal showing a bar fixed in this manner because the bars on campaign medals are entirely different in their nature. Bars awarded to recipients of decorations and gallantry medals signify a reward for a second act of gallantry which would have warranted the issue of the medal had this not already been awarded. A bar on a campaign medal usually signifies that the recipient has taken part in a specified action. British and Empire campaign medals for the Great War do not carry campaign bars with the exception of the 1914 Star. They were proposed for the British War Medal, and Naval bars were authorised, however the idea was dropped on account of the enormous numbers of bars that would be required to satisfy the need. Some Naval miniature medals do carry campaign bars, but these are wholly unofficial. The bar issued for the 1914 Star is sewn directly to the ribbon because of the shape produced by the ring suspender. Bars on capmaign medals are usually fixed to the suspension bar. I hope this helps? Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 30 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Thank you Nigel, Perfectly, even though I think the authorities are being a bit cheap skate, but must admit it would look rather odd to see two, say DCM's side by side in a row of ribbons. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River97 Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Here are some groups from members of the British Medal Forum. Cheers Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 It's not a universal thing; in the Soviet system, you got another medal. Namely, three Orders of Lenin meant you wore... three Orders of Lenin. (mind you, if you were made a Hero of the Soviet Union, you automatically got an Order of Lenin as well). There have been some cases - I wish I could quote chapter and verse, but have certainly seen at least one - where a soldier who got an MM late in WW1 got another one in France in 1940 - and got a George VI MM to go with his George V one. But that was an administrative error, not practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 30 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Hi Andy, The winner of the first group must have been in the thick of things 3 MM's and a MID just to go along with, and thanks Phil. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Yes he was the first one the MM and 2 bars is mine from the BMF . Nice triple MM group to Pte. F. Stacey, M.M., 7th Bn., R,W. Kent R. MC :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 This is another of mine a DCM and bar group that was mentioned above Warrant Officer C.E.Gillott D.C.M. & Bar 455 West Riding Field Company Royal Engineers Territorial Force Distinguished Conduct Medal - London Gazette 17th April 1918 476012 Sgt (A/CSM) C.E. Gillott R.E. (Sheffield) "For Conspicuous Gallantry and Devotion to Duty. He has served with distinction in the field for two and a half years, and by his consistent gallantry in action, power of command and reliability in the performance of his duty has rendered services of out standing merit. He inspired the men under him with the same spirit of courage and devotion to duty." Bar To Distinguished Conduct Medal – London Gazette 3rd September 1918 476012 C.S.M. C.E. Gillott D.C.M. R.E. (Sheffield) "For Conspicuous Gallantry and Devotion to Duty. This Warrant Officer was returning from work with two sections of sappers when he encountered the Enemy advancing along the road between two villages. At once realizing the seriousness of the situation, he assisted in digging two strong posts within 400yds of the enemy, and held on through the night under heavy fire until infantry had had time to consolidate behind." The 455th Field company was with the 29th Division that landed at gallipoli on 25th April 1915 left 5/6 Jan 1916 to France was in the attack on 1st day of the Somme later in first day.Stayed in France rest of the war. 472 bars to the DCM for WW1 ,19 to RE still checking out further details MID etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 If you were in Fourth Army, you also got one of these certificates. I was very lucky to get this in CSM Simmonds photo album which I purchased for 1/6d in the late 60's. No idea where the medals are though, could have gone through the same junk shop. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 There are some great looking groups pictured on this thread and the Bar to the DCM Congratulatory certificate is fantastic. Great to see the colours looking so vibrant. Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Well these are his medals for the certificate above .i am just going through a sale at the moment the certificate etc is a million to one shot.6851 A/CSM F. E. .Simmonds, D.C.M and bar 23rd Fld. Coy., RE. Wounded, nice as it has a long service medal at the end... LG DCM 13/2/1917 bar LG 10/1/20 MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Here is the part of the special order of the day recommending Frank for his Bar to D.C.M., and more importantly the man himself. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 I might just cancel the deal especially with this new stuff come to light ,you said you have a picture album of him ?? never had a picture for a start.Thanks amazing stuff MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 You better have this one then. Frank started his career as a sadler, I also bought his strap cutter, and possibly his pre war full-dress tunic. That junk shop was full of WW1 items. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 This is great stuff i will pm you if you dont mind re other pictures etc as after some years of having his medals its like wow to have his other certificates and pictures available Thanks MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Please do, and thank you for putting up the medal group Here are almost the last of the WW1 photos, and a picture of him in South Africa. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 I think the authorities are being a bit cheap skate, but must admit it would look rather odd to see two, say DCM's side by side in a row of ribbons. They are equally tight about MIDs, allowing only one per medal. So with the above 3 MC group, he was allowed one MID oak leaf for service in India and another for WW2, but could have been mentioned several times in the 2 campaign. They were also cheap skates in relation to gratuities, for those medals that attracted them. A VC brought a £10 gratuity, but a bar to the same only an additional £5! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malch Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Grandad's MM 27/07/1917; Bar, June 1918; DCM 7/11/1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 30 November , 2009 Share Posted 30 November , 2009 Fascinating thread. Thanks. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 1 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2009 Sometimes you just seem to hit the spot when it comes to queries. I agree a fascinating thread and thank you all for the shows of lots of great medal groups, and what a great marriage the certificates etc and his actual medals. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malch Posted 1 December , 2009 Share Posted 1 December , 2009 Just for interest, the dates for Grandad's medals (post #20) are the dates of the actions not the awards. Luckily, both his MM awards are mentioned in War Diaries. The DCM was for an action in which Arthur Moore Lascelles VC (15 DLI) was killed in action. Grandad was maintaining the cables between the forward position of 15 DLI, commanded by Lascelles, and 64th Brigade HQ on 7/11/1918. His DCM citation includes phrases like "... by his fine example of energy, grit and determination.....". Boy's own stuff. By a very, very odd coincendence, after the war, Lascelles' widow moved into a house a couple of streets from where Grandad lived, but he never knew. Hope I'm not boring you with family details................. PS that's him, on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 1 December , 2009 Share Posted 1 December , 2009 They are equally tight about MIDs, allowing only one per medal. ...As it should be, one wouldn't want to see yards of Ribbon "a la" Croix de Guerre et Palmes...with a half dozen Oak Leaves adorned on it,It is; as it should be; in true understated British terms an Emblem to denote Mention!! {The Recipient did recieve any number of Certificates dependant on how many time Mentioned however} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 1 December , 2009 Share Posted 1 December , 2009 Sometimes you just seem to hit the spot when it comes to queries. I agree a fascinating thread and thank you all for the shows of lots of great medal groups, and what a great marriage the certificates etc and his actual medals. David Yes I am going to get in contact pm to start and hopefully get (buy )the pictures and certificate for the bar .I will also be asking which shop he got it from .As more than likely the medals i have came from there but why separate the two ??? MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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