4thGordons Posted 9 October , 2009 Share Posted 9 October , 2009 Just picked up this picture which appears to show British soldiers armed with Japanese Arisaka rifles/bayonets Would anyone like to hazard a guess at the unit? One of the somewhat motley crew appears to be wearing an Imperial Service badge on his cap comforter/wooly. The other badges seem star shaped (including others worn on knit caps) ... any suggestions? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 9 October , 2009 Share Posted 9 October , 2009 The Imperial Service brooch would certainly suggest a TF unit, how about the Kensingtons for starters. Are there any photographers marks on the card? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Hi Jon No completely blank reverse. Not divided. In rather rough shape as you can see from the image. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River97 Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 The Imperial Service brooch would certainly suggest a TF unit, how about the Kensingtons for starters. Are there any photographers marks on the card? Jon Jon, It could very well be as it is documented in the history of the 60th London Division of them receiving these weapons. Cheers Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Although it is impossible to tell from the photograph whether these are Type 30 or Type 38 Arisakas, I am fairly sure they are Type 38s, known in British service as the Pattern 1907 as several of the London units were issued with these in early 1915. In my book I show a picture of Kitchener inspecting a London unit (possibly 1st Batt) armed with Arisakas at the Guildhall, and I have details of the issue to other units. The rifles were usually stamped on the receiver tang with the Unit identification. The attached picture shows a Type 38 stamped with a rack number of 902 issued to the 2/13 County of London in January 1915. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 At least one battalion of the London Regiment was initially issued with these weapons in 1915 as there were not enough SMLEs available at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Based on data from surviving examples of Arisaka rifles and carbines with British markings that I have collected and on photographs, the following units were known to have been issued with them. Type 30 (Pattern 1900) Rifles 2nd Dragoons 6th Northumberland Fusiliers 7th Northumberland Fusiliers Unknown unit Yorkshires Type 38 (Pattern 1907) Rifles 4th East Lancs 8th Essex 14th London 8th Manchester 2/13 London 2/5th East Surrey 17th London (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) 4th Queens Type 38 Carbines Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry Sussex Yeomanry Unknown unit Berkshires 2nd Worcestershire Type 44 Carbines Royal North Devon Hussars I am sure that many others could be identified from War Diaries and other written sources, and of course there were the 50,000 issued to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines in November 1914. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 The 15th Civil Service Rifles were also issued them. There is a photo of a pay parade where the sentry is clearly armed with one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Thank you. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 The first shot does indeed look like 13th Londons (Kensington) badges to me. Am I right in thinking this soldier of the 2/21st Londons (First Surrey Rifles), photo taken in early 1915, has an Arisaka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 The 15th Civil Service Rifles were also issued them. There is a photo of a pay parade where the sentry is clearly armed with one. It's on p.151 of Jill Knight's "The Civil Service Rifles in the Great War". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Paul Yes, It is a Type 38 (Pattern 1907 in British service) Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Somewhere I've read that after the units originaly issued with them got their SMLEs some of their Arisaka rifles went to POW camp guards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Somewhere I've read that after the units originaly issued with them got their SMLEs some of their Arisaka rifles went to POW camp guards Did any of the units named above actually go into combat with Arisaka rifles or were they used by rear echelon units and for training only. What about Royal Navy? Thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Thanks Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Here is a picture of the rifle type in question: Chris I think I have posted this before but its the only other pic I have of British Soldier with an Arisaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 The army only used the Arisakas for training, and as soon as sufficient SMLEs were available the Arisakas were sent on to Russia. The Royal Navy did use them on active service, arming boarding and raiding parties with them as they had had all their Lee Enfields withdrawn for the army. By late 1916 the RN had the Arisakas replaced by Ross rifles. Of the 150,000 we obtained, about 128,000 went to Russia, a few went to Lawrence and the Arabs and there were about 17,000 left in store at the end of the war, which were eventually sold in 1926 and probably ended up in Finland. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2009 TonyE Bit of an Anorak question... were there any manufacturing differences or added features on the British contract Arisakas? Eg buttstock marking discs, piling swivels etc that might not have been present on standard Type 38s etc but may have been usual in British service. or were they taken from existing Japanese stocks rather than manufactured to contract and thus were standard Japanese rifles? The only reason I ask is that mine (no indication it was a British rifle) has one oddity in configuration I have not seen on other examples. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 October , 2009 Share Posted 10 October , 2009 As such, it is wrong to describe them as British contract rifles, in so far as they were not make specifically for Britain. The first 50,000 rifles had originally been offered by Japan to France, but were passed on to us, and the remaining rifles and carbines also came from Japanese stocks as far as I have been able to find out. There were no butt discs added, and all the markings applied by British units were either on the stock or the receiver tang. What is the odd feature of yours? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2009 Mine has a butt-trap in the buttplate (actually the door is missing) but there is a circular hole in the plate and matching hollow in the butt that I have not seen on other Arisakas. I hasten to add I have not examined those I have run accross in great detail but they are pretty common (mostly as WWII bringbacks) in the US. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 11 October , 2009 Share Posted 11 October , 2009 Interesting, I have not seen this before. I checked my copy of the British manual and there is no butt trap shown or listed in the parts list. I will see what I can find out from one of the US Arisaka specialists. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk VII Posted 13 October , 2009 Share Posted 13 October , 2009 The Civil Service Rifles making a low point at bayonet exercises in Hyde Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 October , 2009 Share Posted 13 October , 2009 Good picture, thanks TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 15 October , 2009 Share Posted 15 October , 2009 My step-grandfather was in the 17th London. In 1946 when my dad brought a Model 99 Arisaka 7.7 mm back from occupation Japan grandpa took the firing pin out so nobody would try to chamber an American round in it. Twenty years ago I found a replacement firing pin and the rifle now hangs on the wall with a bayonet picked up on Okinawa by the father of a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 October , 2009 Share Posted 17 October , 2009 Hi Pete Here is a picture of the 17th London with their Arisaka rifles. I do not have an exact date for it though. What is particularly nice about it is that in the original one can see that the rifles have brass muzzle protectors fitted. Maybe your step-grandfather is there! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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