deano Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 the black 'spot' at the top right is the position where Beery's snap was taken, the white 'splodge' on the road below the park is the view i originally thought it was taken from. Davidson, Durkin and McDougal are all in the mass grave, pictures of which i have but seem to have lost !! Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted 28 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Thanks Dean - if we're in agreement then at least I can focus on Burngreave Cemetery (even if we're not sure where around the perimeter!) - meaning that there are only 2 possibilities remaining: Davidson or McDougall. So long as Steve isn't right about it being a retired soldier - but we'll have to see! Interesting...some more leg work to do I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Dan, i spent 3 hours at Sheffield Local Studies this morning trawling the Sheffield Independent newspaper, looking for my great grand mothers first husband, who i found, picture as well !!. I did jan and feb 1916, and on another matter the last part of July 16 for a fellow forumite, 'taff'. I did come across a piece about the number of military funerals held in Sheffield, but i only found 1 poor image to compare to your image. I also have an index of all images of Soldiers, that is, letters, pics, stories, funerals etc, etc, that appeared in the Sheffield Independent from 1st Aug. 1914 - 31st Dec. 1915. No mention of Davidson, McDougal or Williamson., i realise that McDougal would have appeared, if he does appear, in later editions. Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Sorry, lads, I'm about to throw a spanner in the works. Hi Dean When you say the three men are in a mass grave, do you mean they are buried in a plot for three, or other soldiers are interred alongside? This was by no means rare, and there are instances of shared graves in Killingbeck RC Cemetery near Leeds, but I ask because this may suggest that the bodies either lay elsewhere, or that the men were exhumed and reinterred in Burngreave. There could be any number of reasons why; some of which I have outlined above and town centre development. Of course, the ground may have been simply landscaped and the headstones removed. Is the plot marked by a CWGC headstone or a memorial panel? Apologies, I don't really know Sheffield or the city's cemeteries. Dan If it does turn out to be Davidson, you could be onto something of a 'winner'. I don't know what the procedure was for army suicides, but I believe that civilian suicides were usually buried anonymously and often in unmarked and unconsecrated ground. If the cortege is that of Davidson then this would suggest a change and relaxing in attitudes towards those who did commit suicide. Again, and I think it important, the headstones we recognise today as the Commonwealth War Dead were mainly erected postwar. The plot would have originally been marked by a wooden cross or some other marker. Burial Registers and present location also need to be treat with caution if you do decide to pursue this further [Fascinating]. Some bodies have almost certainly been 'lost' in the intervening years with the stone often re-erected nearby. I'll bow out now. I think I've managed to muddle things enough. Good Luck Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Al, there are 31 ? mentioned on the stone that marks the 'mass grave', i dont think any of them are from Sheffield. I'm assuming they were buried in their own plots originally then 'massed' together, or would this be just a 'focal' point for them ? Again i do have pics of all the faces of the stone but cant find them !! Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Thanks Dean It could be either/or at this stage, but it is something worth considering. I have visited some cemeteries where the bodies are in situ, but the ground has been landscaped and a memorial panel erected to those who lay in 'front'. Conversely, there are those who are commemorated on panels other than where they are buried. The panel at Lawnswood Cemetery and Crematorium was erected to those who are buried in the former Leeds General Cemetery [LGC]. Leeds General Cemetery was taken over by the University of Leeds in the 1950s and part of the old cemetery was cleared to build the engineering and science blocks. It was mostly the perimeter walls that were removed. Most - if not all - of the Commonwealth War Dead still lay in situ, but a memorial was raised at Lawnswood to make sure that these men were acknowledged. As you say, the men could have been 'massed' together. Lawnswood Cemetery offers a good example of this too. There are two memorial panels almost side by side. The first commemorates those buried in the cemetery [and possibly 'massed' in front of the Cross of Sacrifice], and the second was erected to those who lay in the former LGC. Al I should have added there are also individual headstones to be found in Lawnswood Cemetery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteyre Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 will go and have a look on site tomorrow, this intigues me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted 29 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Many thanks for all the comments lads - it seems I've opened a whole can of worms here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...6549&mode=1 http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_Result...2&send.y=16 Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...6549&mode=1 http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_Result...2&send.y=16 Steve Perfect I am looking forward to seeing if Dan or Dean find anything in the library. Very exciting. I would also be interested in the air raid on Sheffield in December 1940 and whether Burngreave Cemetery was hit in the attack. Or maybe CWGC (IWGC) have 'lost the plot' (pardon the pun) and simply 'misplaced' the original grave locations. It sounds like shorthand for 'we don't know' to me. They should do. IWGC would have been in periodic contact with most cemetery and burial boards regarding maintenance and erection of gravestones. The grave reference and date of death was usually asked for and noted for clarification and any doubts or queries followed up. It may be worth looking at the Burial Registers for Burngreave if they survive [some registers have been copied onto microfiche] Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnrEaton Posted 29 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2009 It may be a little while before I can get to the library - I'm going to be flat out at work for a couple of weeks, but hopefully can get to Local Studies after that. There has been speculation on the Sheffield Memories group that the cortege may be passing swings (and which case possibly a school) so the net has been widened to include that. Locke Park in Barnsely was another possible suggestion, but there were no tram lines there at that point. C'est la vie... Don't know about the history of the screen wall in Burngreave but remember it as being quite well done from last time I was there - the idea of a Blitz hit might tie in, but Dean is far better up on that than I. Picture attached from CWGC site for all non-Sheffielders out there (like Dean I've also lost my own copy!). Will keep all posted as and when anything else crops up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Hi Dan, 'the swings', i see a small 'A' frame type structure first, then two more larger, same size ones, i also see a pole at either end of the string of frames. I wonder if there was a wire running between the poles over the frames ? might ring a bell with some one ? Dan, its this stone i mean by 'mass grave', apologies for the pic, i've lifted it off a book my mate did on the cemetery, it is my pic though! The names are on all four sides of the square base, and there is a long paved area in front. 31 names of soldiers who died at the 3rd Northern General Hospitals in Sheffield. Al, no bomb damage during WW2 i think, but the Zeppelin missed the Church and Chapels by about a hundred yards ! So i suppose they just kept extending the grave when another chap passed away? I've seen a few images of other military funerals in the old papers but nothing to shed light on this particular one. Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Good stuff Gentlemen Dean, I'll contact the Friends' of Burngreave Cemetery to see if they have any copies for sale [Albert Jackson and Victims of the Great War?] It does sound from what you say that a plot was set aside for the war dead. There could be something in the Council Minutes [Parks and Gardens Committee. Some CMs also list those who were serving - and died - from different departments. Very useful] Cheers Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 No tram rails.... Ok, how about Clifton park Rotheram? They had trolley buses by WW1. A monument is there, the wall may have gone, lots of curves, and close to Sheffield. Strange that in those days no sword (for an officer) or headress on the coffin. Maybe an ex-soldier! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 Tried posting this last night in my last post, but everything just froze, and got a white screen I have a copy of that book, i helped with images etc. Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 My thoughts (on now having seen the photo) are that the original graves have been lost and that the memorial was raised to those who were buried in the cemetery or the clearance of another. Obituaries and newspaper reports sometimes provide the information needed and may offer some indication as to place of burial. At least one or two reports or obituaries on any of the 31 men listed would help to confirm or dispel any doubts otherwise. The book looks good and very reasonably priced at £7. http://www.burngreavemessenger.org/communi...y/events/books/ Cheers Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 Gentlemen For those interested there a couple of programmes on BBC 4 later tonight which deal with The Art of Dying and The Victorian Way of Death. Dan Cruickshank presents. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 1 October , 2009 Share Posted 1 October , 2009 Hi there, sorry for the late arrival on this thread, what does that look like in the middle of the original photo, it looks like a fountain or statue to me. The Union Flag over the coffin is rather ornate, could it have been a Regimental one, I have seen something like this before and it turned out to be the Commandant if thats the right word of a Ordance Factory that had died and given a Military funeral. Sorry if I have created more questions than answers. Cheers Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 2 October , 2009 Share Posted 2 October , 2009 Good Evening Gentlemen I thought this piece taken from the Bradford Telegraph and Argus in March 1918 would be of descriptive interest. Military Funeral The funeral took place last week at Nab Wood Cemetery, Shipley, of Lieut. E.N. Firth, West Yorks Regt., only son of Mr and Mrs Geo. Firth, of Hirst Lea, Shipley, who died at Somerville Hospital, Oxford, from the effects of gas poisoning. The coffin, covered with a Union Jack, was borne to the cemetery on a gun carriage. A party from a Cadet Corps of the Leeds Boys Modern School (where Lieut. Firth was educated), attended, and their bugler sounded the Last Post. The 5th Batt. West Riding Volunteers supplied the firing party. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Service 1952 Posted 26 October , 2009 Share Posted 26 October , 2009 Funeral of Lt. 'Teddy' Firth. Apologies for the quality. Source: Bradford Weekly Telegraph. Regards, Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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