WWI era funeral cortege in Sheffield

[GnrEaton]

i all,

Just been briefly browsing through this month's Grapevine magazine for Sheffield (free on pushed through your door every month) - to be fair I don't normally pay it too much attention but found this picture on the John Heath Funeral Directors page. It's one they have found in their archive and don't have any info on but are open to ideas. As someone looking into the history of Sheffield in the Great War I'd love to know a bit more about it and it's background.

I've tried to scan it in, but the image is not stunning quality - I think you're best off not zooming in too closely lest it get too blurry! If you're in Sheffield just check the magazine out for the original, it's page 22. The text is also here as an attachment.

I have no ideas as to the unit or the location and would love to know where it was actually taken, but it looks fairly distinctive as a site. There are a few points worth making to start the ball rolling on this one I think:

i) there seems to be a mixture of units - the text draws attention to the two scotsmen at the head of the cortege in kilts, but most of the other troops are not in the same dress. Most are wearing webbing crossed at the back with buckles just below the shoulders.

ii) the soldier level with the centre of the cortege has a curved shoulder title visible - line regiments only had this and not RFA / RGA as implied by the text?

iii) the cortege needn't be an RFA gun carriage - didn't virtually all units have access to limbers like this throughout the war?

iv) the monument in the centre of the background is pretty individual in shape and style - any ideas? As is the building and structure, so likewise.

v) the pole structure to the right of the picture may also give some clue as to location - what is it?

I'd love to know more about this picture as it seems most intriguing, and I for one haven't seen many home service funeral groups like this outside of a description in the press of the time so please put forward any suggestions you may have. Hope I don't seem too much of a newbie and have missed obvious points,

Dan.

PS I've also posted this thread on the Sheffield Memories Forum and also a larger picture and text upload, so if you want to find it the address is:

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/i...?showtopic=7396

[centurion]

Unfortunately the download does not work without registering

[National Service 1952]

Hello Dan

One of two possibilities regarding the Scotsmen to the front of the cortege. Either they were representing the unit of the deceased or there was a Jock regiment in training nearby. I think notice had to be given for use of the gun carriage, which might suggest that the other men belonged to the local territorial force and were there to make up the numbers.

I suppose it also depends on where the deceased had died. There are soldiers buried in Undercliffe Cemetery who had died in Bradford but were not native born, and others who had died elsewhere and were brought home at the family's request.

Interesting post

Al

I can't be certain, but I think there was a stipulation that the gun carriage could not be used if more than 1.5 miles from home/railway station/hospital/cemetery. Worth exploring? I could be way off the mark on all counts.

[GnrEaton]

Thanks for the suggestions Al - I'll follow up your ideas and also have a go at re-posting the text on this forum. Will put a fuller post up when I've followed a few more lines of enquiries and have more to add!

[GnrEaton]

I've uploaded the original magazine text now, so sorry for those of you who didn't see it before!

Using all the known suggestions so far - given that most point to a Scotsman (or possibly Irish?) being buried somewhere in Sheffield between 1914 and 1916 (as suggested on the Sheffield forum - due to stiff caps and P1908 webbing) - I've looked through all the CWGC records for Sheffield cemeteries and have come up with this list (assuming that as Heath's Funeral Directors are based in Sheffield we are only looking there):

S/18207 Pte W Davidson, 5th Camerons died 5/11/15, Burngreave Cemetery

16714 Pte Martin Durkin, 8th Dublin Fusiliers, died 5/7/16, Burngreave Cemetery

3625 Pte W T McDougall, 1/4 Black Watch, died 30/12/15, Burngreave Cemetery

5220 Sjt Richard Brennan, 4th Dublin Fusiliers,died 28/7/16, City Road (age 40)

13604, Sjt M McCullagh, 4th Dublin Fusiliers, died 11/12/16, St Michael's R.C. Cemetery

26619 Pte John O'Donoghue, 10th Dublin Fusiliers, died 1/12/16, St. Michael's RC Cemetery (age 18)

14177 Pte Arnold Edwin Williamson, 8th KOSB, died 20/10/1915, Tinsley Park Cemetery (age 19)

Of all of these, Richard Brennan would be my top candidate - his CWGC record states he had 22 yrs service and had served in the Boer War. Also, he was Sheffield born and bred (but his home address was Dublin), so maybe this would partially go towards the 'pomp', as I'm not convinced the army would do this normally for all 18 year old privates who died in training - would they?

The only things mainly bothering me on this one are: did the Dublin Fusiliers wear similar caps to Scottish regiments as suggested in the original text? Seems a little tenuous, but could solve this puzzle if they did. Where is this location - is it within a mile and a half of City Road Cemetery?

Still going to keep looking on this one, it's proving to be an interesting challenge - any other suggestions / ideas would be gratefully received to get this one solved!

Dan.

[matteyre]

This is intriguing... Have been checking Sheffield Parks to see if there is a match, Graves Park was not opened til after the war, and it looks too rural to be Norfolk Park. The building on the right looks like it should still be around today, and the monument looks important enough to be recorded. .. will show the picture to my father in law to see if he can work it out. Heaths are a Sheffield based firm and are old friends of mine so will see if I can find out any more

[GnrEaton]

This is intriguing... Have been checking Sheffield Parks to see if there is a match, Graves Park was not opened til after the war, and it looks too rural to be Norfolk Park. The building on the right looks like it should still be around today, and the monument looks important enough to be recorded. .. will show the picture to my father in law to see if he can work it out. Heaths are a Sheffield based firm and are old friends of mine so will see if I can find out any more

Thanks matteyre. I've looked long and hard at this and it doesn't look like any of the parks I know in Sheffield - like you say the memorial and the building are probably going to be the key for location at least. The pole on the right is now positely identified as being a tram pole - it matches perfectly with others, so we know it's also on one of the main tram routes as well now. Any extra info the Heath's have would be very helpful.

Dan.

[National Service 1952]

Hi Dan

The author of the article makes a good point. It may well be a churchyard and not a cemetery. I am not sure how you would go about researching that or distinguishing between both on CWGC. You would need to know the names of the churchyards with CWGC burials. I suppose a local directory would help narrow things down.

Cheers

Al

[GnrEaton]

Al,

I think the location might have be identified now - it might be Abbeyfield Park on Abbeyfield Rd / Barnsley Road. The walls surrounding it look similar and it is directly on the way to Burngreave Cemetery from the Northern General Hospital (less than a mile). There are only 3 Scotsman buried there so we may be onto something! One has service papers on Ancestry that I'm going to look at in a minute.

Good point about the churchyard's / cemeteries though - when I did the CWGC searches I did do a general Sheffield search as opposed to a specific name.

Thanks again,

Dan.

[National Service 1952]

I've just had another thought. The cemetery/burial ground/church/churchyard might no longer be there. I am sure Sheffield has seen many changes over the years and it is possible all of the above have been demolished to make way for change. Sorry, Dan, I'm not making things easy am I?

I am sure you will come up with an answer

Al

Thanks for the update Dan. You beat me to it with my Doomsday scenario.

[GnrEaton]

I'll keep going, hopefully something will turn up as a dead cert!

[Steven Broomfield]

did the Dublin Fusiliers wear similar caps to Scottish regiments as suggested in the original text?

Dan.

No - the officers and men of the Dublin Fus would have worn flat caps on the English/Welsh style. However, pipers may well have worn kilts and caubeens (like a T o S, but without a tourie on top). This might make an irish regiment more likely, as the o.r.s of a Scottish unit wouldn't wear a flat cap. It's difficult to say what headgear the blokes at the front are wearing, but an Irish piper's rig looks as good a bet as any.

[GnrEaton]

Great - thanks for that Steven, I really don't have much experience with Irish regimental uniforms and I suppose a piper at a funeral would make sense. I'll keep thinking on it...unfortunately if Irish regiments are back with a reasonable match, then my potentially strong Camerons candidate is now out of the window! Location & cemetery could be back up for grabs. Ho hum, back to Al's Doomsday scenario - something will turn up, I'm sure. At least it's generating some interesting discussion.

If anyone with Ancestry access is interested S/18207 William Davidson's papers make very interesting reading. He apparently couldn't cope with being disabled (although he was told he would make a full recovery) so he slit his throat in the hospital toilets at the Northern General Hospital in Sheffield. The press report is included within them. He died in November '15 and was buried in Burngreave Cemetery, which is not far from my idea of Abbeyfield.

Just a thought though, if he'd committed suicide could he buried with full military honours?

Dan.

[National Service 1952]

I'll keep going, hopefully something will turn up as a dead cert!

It's the only cert in life.

Assuming it is winter, and that Steven is right , would it be wrong to discount Pte. Martin Durkin [5-7-1916] and Sjt Richard Durkin from further investigation? This would leave Pte. W Davidson and Pte WT McDougall in Burngreave Cemetery, the first of whom served with the 5th Camerons. I await your findings.

Regards

Al

I must be getting slow in my old age

[deano]

Dan, just thoughts.

Abbeyfield Park is my neck of the woods, doesn't look like it to me, i did at first think it was from Abbeyfield Road, looking across the park to Firshill Post Office, now i dont think so. Also, if the cortege was coming from the hosp. at the now Northern General, would not it had turned left onto Scott road to the entrance on there ? Also if it was coming up from town, or up Rutland Road from the west of the city it would not pass Abbeyfield Park, it would use the entrance on Melrose road ? Again, just thoughts Dan.

regards

Dean.

[matteyre]

Might be Abbeyfield, but i'm not convinced, mainly because between the Northern General and Burngreave there would have still been quite a lot of victorian housing, and the photo looks almost semi rural... John Heath and Sons are located in Burngreave though, so if this is the right location it is close by.

[GnrEaton]

Good news and bad news then!

I think I'd agree about Al's winter comment, it's certainly not July by the look of the trees!

I admit Abbeyfield doesn't fit perfectly; the slope on Abbeyfield road seems to be a little more severe than on this particular image. If we discount Abbeyfield, does anyone have other suggestions - I looked through images of most of the open spaces around today and none seem to tally. The Sheffield forum also has a google street view match I thought I'd found posted (there is a large circular section to Abbeyfield Park in approx the same position as on this photo, but I guess park layouts were similar).

Dean - you'll know the lie of the land very well in that bit of Sheffield, does any of it look familiar, surely the weird triangular frames must be recognisable is some shape or form from other images you may have seen?

I feel that this has to have been going from one of the major hospitals in Sheffield, and if you can only go for one and a half miles with a carriage (see Al's earlier quote) then it can't be too far. I think churchyard's were probably less likely.

Anyway, I'm refusing to give up yet!

matteyre's comment about Heath's location is very well made tho.

Dan.

[National Service 1952]

Gentlemen

I have taken this extract from the House of Commons Debates and tidied it up a bit because I couldn't post the link. I have also highlighted the King's Regulations which I think may be relevant to the topic in hand and the use of gun carriages. Cheers, Al.

HC Deb 15 May 1924 vol 173 cc1552-3 [Military Funerals: Supply of Gun Carriage]

Major Sir Bertram Falle: asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a gun-carriage is no longer available for Army funerals, but that a wagon has been in many cases substituted for it; and if he will revert to the older practice?

Mr. Walsh: In answer to my hon. and gallant Friend, no change of practice has taken place. Gun-carriages are not in all cases available, but the rule laid down in paragraph 934 of the King's Regulations as regards the military funerals of officers and soldiers is that gun-carriages will be supplied when available at the station, and in addition a certain number of gun-carriages are in the possession of each command for stations where no Royal Artillery is quartered. Whether these carriages can be sent for a military funeral depends upon the distance involved and the circumstances of the death.

Sir. B Falle: I understand that when there happens to be a gun-carriage available the use of wagons is wrong?

Mr Walsh: It all depends upon the circumstances. It may very well be that the circumstances are such that a gun-carriage would not be the proper appliance. Gun-carriages are supplied under circumstances which are definitely laid down in the King's Regulations, and no change has been made in them.

[deano]

Hi Dan, as you know John Heaths are still at Burngreave re matteyre post, so it would literally be a two minute walk up Burngreave road and onto Melrose Road, or up Ellesmere road then onto Scott Road, not passing Abbeyfield park. The Melrose road entrance is by the two chapels where i presume services were held. Really cant put my finger on where this was took Dan. In the image the cortege looks like it is is walking down a slight gradient in the road if you look at the wall. If it was the Abbeyfield Road view you would be walking up hill, and the wall is taller. Also if you was walking down Burngreave road past the Park, that is not the view you would get of the house in there.

Dean.

[GnrEaton]

Many thanks Al - that seems to clear up that one. Beery on the Sheffield forum thinks I might have been closer with this image from PictureSheffield. What do you think Dean?

There are not many parks with distinctive wall lines / trees like this so hopefully someone else may recognise it, I think it may just have to run and see if anyone spots something we haven't. I can't explain the Heath's link or route, but in a way it would make sense if it was over this side of the city (I agree about your route from Northern General and the Station tho). I guess the more I think on it the more the location will give the clue as to who's funeral it is. We are now down to a max of 15 or so individuals if we are still looking at a man servings in a Scots / Irish regiment who was buried in one of the major cemetery's in Sfd.

Dan.

[deano]

Dan,

thats Abbeyfield Park from the corner of the Post Office. The house, if you were walking down the road, that is, to our right on the image, faces the way you are walking, the house in the original image is facing up the road.

Dean.

[stevem49]

Am I right in assuming that all of the local newspapers have been checked for around the dates of death of all of the men?

Stevem

[GnrEaton]

Am I right in assuming that all of the local newspapers have been checked for around the dates of death of all of the men?

Stevem

The pic was only published yesterday! It may take some time to track down newspaper cuttings for these men (which I will do if all else fails) but I have found Sheffield newspapers to be infuriating vague at times when looking for other men. Still, it'll be worth a go if no-one can spot anything on here. I was hoping at the outset that someone might be able to give a positive regimental ID to clear things up quickly, and I hope no-one minds that we're still trying to ID this photo when it seems it might not be as relevent as many of the other threads on this particular forum.

[GnrEaton]

Dean - there is an image on the Sheffield memories forum that could be our match, but if you could have a look that'd be better. I think for the time being we're probably better off posting on there until we get a firm location, as the military is purely speculative until then! Hope this is all OK,

Dan.

Thanks for all the effort with this chaps, if I ever get an answer to this one I'll make sure I update the thread on here so everyone can know whose funeral it is!

[stevem49]

Dan

Thanks for clarifying that bit. I would think that the Funeral Directors would have taken a copy of the photograph of the funeral for their records, from a newspaper article. On this occasion, it would be the first place I would look.

It is just that it may not have been one of the men you suggest. It could have been an old soldier/officer who happened to die in WW1. Despite having a 'military' funeral, he may not have a CWGC stone etc.

Best of luck!!

Steve