Help with unidentified WWI soldiers- uniforms

[MalcolmD]

Hello everyone, I am quite new to this forum so please forgive me for my lack of knowledge, I suppose that's why I am here.

Recently I was sorting out a shoebox of photos, quite literally, that my mother had cleared from my Grandmother's house after she died, and in it we found, amongst others, photos of Great War soldiers. We only have the vaguest idea of who these soldiers may be. My mother's family were from Oldham, Lancs on one side Irish/British and Hull, E.Riding Yorks on the other- I figured this may help "detect" the regiments etc. My Irish G-G-Grandfather Mr John Maher had been a sodier in Ireland and then in the "militia", he would have been about 53 in 1914 so probably too old to serve. The others look like very young lads.

I know it is probably impossible to identify individual soldiers but I thought if an expert could look at the uniforms, the cap badges and the barracks in the background of three of the photos it may help my family narrow the possibilities down to who these lads may be.

We have a name of one soldier, but we do not know which one he may be, Pvte 1270 Joseph Maher b Co. Westmeath, Duke of Wellingtons 1/7th killed 3/7/1916. As for the others... we are not sure.

If anyone would like to have a look and give us a hand with this, my family and I would be most grateful.

In anticipation,

M

[DMannus]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I'll have a go for you to get this started.

Numbered left to right as you look at it.

1. Def East Yorkshire.

2. Tank regiment - regular soldier - one good conduct chevron.

3. West Riding?

4. Mounted or mounted infantry - distinctive shoulder patches.

5. General service buttons on caps - not assigned to a regiment?

6. ?

7. Lancs Fusiliers.

8. Kings Liverpool.

9.

10. West Riding.

11. Overseas service stripes.

12.

David

[MalcolmD]

Thanks David...

That's a great help already.

No.1. Being in the East Yorkshire regiment confirms who we think it is, Pvte Henry Banks, the brother of the sailor whom we can positively identify James William Banks, would the oveseas stripes be for service at Jutland?

No 2?

No.3. If No 3. is definitely Duke of Wellington's, West Riding then I think we can identify him as Pvte Joseph Maher who was killed in 1916, of the 1st/7th battalion. Problem is with no !0- I have just noticed a stamp JUL 1934 on the back of it and a very faded address... however the photo may have been reprinted at a later date, there is an address to a Miss Edna Lig.... somewhere in Oldham but it is too badly faded to be recognisable, the photo studio is Redcar. A bit of a mystery that one,

No 7 and 8 appear to be the same lad, but why different regiments?

With an Irish contingent in the family it would surprise me if there were not relatives in Liverpool too, who would naturally have been likely volunteer to a Liverpool regiment.

We know that in our family

Joseph Maher 1270 Pvte 1st/7th was killed 3/7/1916 at the Somme, Duke of Wellington's

John Mugan 2376 Pvte Cheshire Regiment 1st/5th was also killed 1916 (could this be the tank regiment? Cavalry?)

There is another Joseph Francis Maher 16th Bn Manchester Regiment 4605 killed 1916- we believe he may be a distant relative

Added to which there is a James Maher 1478 Duke of Wellington's, 8th battalion who was killed in 1917- again we believe he may be a more distant relative

Any input would be appreciated. I must admit, looking at those two lads in No 5 who are not even as tall as their rifles, and the look on one of their faces in particular, is quite haunting.

If only someone had bothered to write who they were!!!!

Thanks in advance,

M

[DMannus]

M

Was in a bit of a rush earlier but now have had a chance to have a better look.

Henry Banks service number was 29063. Photo dated late 1915/early 1916.

Overseas stripes were issued for service in war-one for each year-the first was coloured red for 1914 then blue for the years after that. They were issued in late 1917/early 1918 so that dates the naval picture about 1918. He is a rating showing a stokers trade bade and one good conduct chevron.

No.2 - Photo may be post WW1 as collar dogs were not general worn until post mid 1920s- there are three medal index cards for Mather's in WW1 - an Edward T O, a James V and a John.

No3- Service number 1270 - entered France 15/4/15 - would tend to suggest he was with 1/7th. Shoulder brass tends to corroborate this from the photo.

7/8 - Not sure if it is the same lad

No 9 - all the lads at the back are Manchesters, front row left (as you look at it) is a Staffordshire. The soldier in the middle is in uniform (believe it or not) and is a tradesman, probably a cobbler or tailor. the men to the right have the badges of a light infantry regiment - best guess would be Durham LI- need an expert for that.

No 10 - def WW1.

David

[MalcolmD]

Was in a bit of a rush earlier but now have had a chance to have a better look.

-No problem, these photos have waited 90 years for any attention...

Your facts/ideas

Henry Banks service number was 29063. Photo dated late 1915/early 1916.

-Check!

(Sailor J.W.Banks) They were issued in late 1917/early 1918 so that dates the naval picture about 1918. He is a rating showing a stokers trade bade and one good conduct chevron.

-Check!

No.2 - Photo may be post WW1 as collar dogs were not general worn until post mid 1920s- there are three medal index cards for Mather's in WW1 - an Edward T O, a James V and a John-

I did think there was something odd about this photo--- NB the surname is MAHER, not Mathers... common mistake. , sometimes written as O'Maher/Meagher

No3- Service number 1270 - entered France 15/4/15 - would tend to suggest he was with 1/7th. Shoulder brass tends to corroborate this from the photo.

-Check

7/8 - Not sure if it is the same lad

-If they aren't the same lad(s) then they must be related, same family "archive" and very similar faces. Will have to ask me ma'.

No 9 - all the lads at the back are Manchesters, front row left (as you look at it) is a Staffordshire. The soldier in the middle is in uniform (believe it or not) and is a tradesman, probably a cobbler or tailor. the men to the right have the badges of a light infantry regiment - best guess would be Durham LI- need an expert for that.

-Check. Quite proud of myself getting a few of these as I know nothing about WW1!!!

No 10 - def WW1.

-Check

Problem I have now, is looking for (Irish) Mahers and Mellors in Oldham-Liverpool radius is quite a daunting task.

In my first post I mentioned a man J.Maher who would have been in his 50's. Is it possible he served? One of the men in the group photo looks very much like another non-military photo.

Another question if I may...

I have another relative on a different side (Devon) who was killed and is commemorated on the Commonwealth War Graves, yet I can't find him in the National Archives- William Cann- Pvte North Somerset Yeomanry Labour Corps transf to 453534 Service No 2379 date of death 6.4.1919- a clue to this was the family story is that the poor chap was kicked in the head by a horse the day before he was supposed to be coming home and died as a result. Like so many family stories it's hard to know how accurate it is but N.S. Yeomanry were cavalry weren't they and horses were still used up until WWII.

Thanks for all your help... are any of these regiments connected to you by chance? As you seem to know a lot!

M

[Staffsyeoman]

Sorry to throw a spanner into the works...

1. Could be WW1 period Cheshire Regiment - from a distance/lighting the badges are similar shape.

2. Certainly post war as those collars are Royal Tank Corps/Royal Tank Regiment

3. Duke of Wellington's Regiment

4. No idea; anything from a mounted unit to transport - but he does have some kind of unit flash on the upper left sleeve

5. Soldiers of a Kitchener Battalion without cap badges. In the cap is a General Service button with cloth behind. Several battalions used this.

6. No idea; the lanyard could (only could) be the 'fourragere' - in the colours of the French Croix de Guerre (green and scarlet) awarded to a number of British units

7. Lancashire Fusiliers

8. King's Liverpool Regiment

9. The four at the back seem to be Manchester Regiment; front row L - North Staffordshire Regiment - two at right I think Durham Light Infantry. He might not be in uniform because photo taken in free time.

10. Duke Of Wellington's Regiment but post war as he's wearing collar badges

11. Says who he is; the three blade prop shows he's a Stoker; the chevrons on right sleeve are overseas service stripes for WW1, but look like they have been added later by the photographer.

12. No idea from the unifrom.

[MBrockway]

Sorry to throw a spanner into the works...

1. Could be WW1 period Cheshire Regiment - from a distance/lighting the badges are similar shape.

5. Soldiers of a Kitchener Battalion without cap badges. In the cap is a General Service button with cloth behind. Several battalions used this.

9. The four at the back seem to be Manchester Regiment; front row L - North Staffordshire Regiment - two at right I think Durham Light Infantry. He might not be in uniform because photo taken in free time.

Pals,

My two penn'orth ...

1. Disagree: the scroll ends look too close to the garter star for the Cheshires, but these badges are notoriously difficult to differentiate! These Posts show side-by-side comparison pics which may help:

Cap badges based on Garter Star - the usual suspects (except East Yorks)

... and the East Yorks

5. Agree: the GS button was used by New Army units as a substitute cap badge while they were waiting for the correct regimental badge to be supplied. That in turn suggests the picture is a hutted Camp somewhere in Blighty, not in France & Flanders, and taken in late 1914 to mid 1915 - i.e. after the Kitchener units moved into khaki SD out of Kitchener "blues" and received rifles, but before cap badge production caught up. The Service Dress and equipment do look very "new" . A weapons expert may be able to make useful comment on whether the rifles are standard SMLE or one of the interim rifles supplied to the New Army battalions while training, which could further help with dating the picture.

9. I agree: two at right are DLI - the strung bugle is topped with a crown, whereas the only other possibility is King's Shropshire Light Infantry which has a knot. 90% sure they're crowns in the picture. I rule out Ox & Bucks LI as it has no lettering, so the bottom half of the badge appears more open and less "solid" than here.

The rest are either uncontentious, or I have nothing useful to add to what the other Pals have already said!

Cheers,

Mark

[MalcolmD]

Thanks everyone, you are all a great help and I must say as a newcomer it's all fascinating stuff...

As for the East Yorskhire regiment, we are 99% certain it is our man, from Hull as we have other photos with confirmed family members and it definitely looks like him- although those very old photos can be misleading. The ones you chaps have seen have already been enhanced and "retouched" as best possible so you can imagine what state the originals are in!!!

Just help me out a bit because you have gone all "jargon" on me...

Kitchener regiment? (training/initial volunteers?)

SMLE (standard military....?)

DLI (----light infantry?)

GS (general service?)

I agree the photo of the two lads does look rather "new"... in the sense of their equipment, the barracks at the back does look similar to the one with the other "two" lads Liverpool/Lancashire fusiliers- although it is hard to tell.

M

[4thGordons]

Can't add much to the above but: The rifles in picture no5 are Pattern 14 rifles topped with Pattern 1913 Bayonets, so not SMLEs or CCLEs. they are also wearing pattern 14 leather equipment. This to me suggests a late 1915 early 1916 picture, and a service (Kitchener) battalion. It is an excellent photo!

Cheers

Chris

SMLE = Short, Magazine Lee Enfield (standard service rifle of the era)

CLLE = Charger Loading Lee Enfield (an earlier, longer version of the above commonly in service until late 1915 and later in training/second line units and a few front line units especially outside Europe)

[max7474]

GS is General Service. The standard button with the Royal Coat of Arms on it rather than a button with a regimental design.

DLI is the Durham Light Infantry.

[MBrockway]

Just help me out a bit because you have gone all "jargon" on me...

Kitchener regiment? (training/initial volunteers?)

SMLE (standard military....?)

DLI (----light infantry?)

GS (general service?)

M

Profuse apologies M - it's easy to get lazy - generally I give the full term with the acronym in parentheses following when I first use the term, then use the acronym thereafter.

In this case Durham Light Infantry (DLI) and General Service (GS) were expressed in full in the quotation from Staffsyeoman at the top of my post, so I went straight to the acronym, but I agree ... rude and lazy!

SD is Service Dress.

Kitchener battalions were the early New Army battalions formed from the initial wave of volunteers responding to the "Your country needs YOU" campaigns of General Lord Kitchener. You will sometimes see them referred to as K1, K2 and K3. See this page on the Mother Site for more info:

LLT - Recruitment & Enlistment process

The flood of volunteers overwhelmed the supply of available materiel so these battalions did not at first have uniforms, webbing or rifles. As a stop-gap they were issued with dark blue uniforms known as Kitchener Blues, which were not popular as the recruits thought they made them look like postmen!

Eventually khaki Service Dress (SD) began to be issued, but often the correct cap badges arrived later so the General Service (GS) brass button was used as a cap badge pro tem.

A simplified SD tunic was also issued around this time - the so-called Utility tunic. It had unpleated pockets, no shoulder patch, so was faster & easier to produce requiring less skilled labour. Your chaps however are not wearing this, but the "proper" SD tunic.

The Kitchener units were also slow to get their correct rifles - the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) - with a variety of alternatives supplied as stop-gaps. Early on, rifle drill was performed with wooden sticks! Generally they did get the SMLE when they went to the Front and the alternatives remained in Britain for musketry training, though not always: the 20th King's Royal Rifle Corps had to go out with no rifles whatever and were somewhat miffed when a rumour quickly spread that they were a unit made up of Conscientious Objectors!

Different units recieved their uniforms and equipment at different times, which can sometimes be used to date pictures - hence our interest.

Chris (4thGordons) has done an excellent booklet on all of this, which you should be able to find from a Forum search.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

See this page on the Mother Site for more info:

LLT - Recruitment & Enlistment process

Ooops! There I go again!

LLT = The Long, Long Trail - i.e. the Mother Site

Sorry

Mark

[MBrockway]

Can't add much to the above but: The rifles in picture no5 are Pattern 14 rifles topped with Pattern 1913 Bayonets, so not SMLEs or CCLEs. they are also wearing pattern 14 leather equipment. This to me suggests a late 1915 early 1916 picture, and a service (Kitchener) battalion. It is an excellent photo!

Cheers

Chris

So Pals ...

We now have "Kitchener" Service battalions from ...

• Durham Light Infantry
• King's Liverpool Regt
• Lancashire Fusiliers
• Manchester Regt
• North Staffs [Edit: the photo shows South Staffs, not N Staffs]

... all in a hutted camp somewhere in Blighty in approx late 1915 to early 1916.

Can we deduce the location of this camp by finding a New Army Division which has all these units and then work out where in Blighty that Division was training?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

So Pals ...

Can we deduce the location of this camp by finding a New Army Division which has all these units and then work out where in Blighty that Division was training?

Cheers,

Mark

Pals,

Had a quick look at this using the info on the Mother Site.

Thought it wise to begin looking for "intersections" between the Service battalions of the regiments furthest apart geographically - DLI and N Staffs [Edit: photo shows South Staffs not North Staffs, so this exercise will need to be repeated].

Only Division in common is 19th (Western) Division ...

22 DLI - attached as Army Troops - Jun-Jul 1916

8 N Staffs - 57 Brigade [Edit: see Note above]

An unlikely candidate given 22 DLI were only part of the Division for less than 8 weeks ... and outside our probable time window! Also there were no units from the KLR, Lancs Fus nor Manchesters in 19th Division.

So no joy on the Service battalions.

I then had a quick look at the Reserve battalions, again using the info from the Mother site.

The Mother Site has no info on locations of the Reserve btns of the KLR (and the Warpath OrBat website is down at the moment).

The DLI, Manchesters and N Staffs [Edit: see Note above] all appear to have had battalions at Cannock Chase (Rugely or Brocton), but not apparently the Lancs Fusiliers.

DLI and N Staffs [Edit: see Note above] both had btns at Darlington (which all later moved to Cannock Chase).

The Lancs Fusiliers and Manchesters both had btns at Prees Heath.

So no obvious outright probable location, but a number of good candidates.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

5. Soldiers of a Kitchener Battalion without cap badges. In the cap is a General Service button with cloth behind. Several battalions used this.

Pals,

5. Agree: the GS button was used by New Army units as a substitute cap badge while they were waiting for the correct regimental badge to be supplied. That in turn suggests the picture is a hutted Camp somewhere in Blighty, not in France & Flanders, and taken in late 1914 to mid 1915 - i.e. after the Kitchener units moved into khaki SD out of Kitchener "blues" and received rifles, but before cap badge production caught up. The Service Dress and equipment do look very "new" . A weapons expert may be able to make useful comment on whether the rifles are standard SMLE or one of the interim rifles supplied to the New Army battalions while training, which could further help with dating the picture.

Cheers,

Mark

Pals,

Just had a thought while looking at the Reserve battalion locations in the post above ...

When the Training Reserve (TR) was set up in 1916, they too adopted the General Service (GS) button as a cap badge mounted on a piece of cloth. See here:

LLT - Training Reserve

Are we certain that the Kitchener Service battalions definitely did also use the GS button as a temporary cap badge?

Also, even if we are, another possible scenario for the pictures in the hutted Camp is conscripted recruits in the Training Reserve who are then allocated to their active service regiments, receive their uniforms, and then have their photographs done to share with their TR friends before dispersing to their battalions.

Would such TR men get their regimental uniforms before dispersing?

If the TR scenario "has legs", then we'll need to revise our dating of the photos in the Camp.

Cheers,

Mark

[MalcolmD]

Thanks for all your help chaps,

I am trying to take it all in but am afraid I have little to offer in return other than possible names or possible locations.

As for the Lancs Fus/Liverpool lads. We are 90% certain that No 3, West Riding must be Joseph Maher 1270 who died at the Somme. This family were Irish immigrants who "drifted" over to the mainland in the early 1900's, but not all at the same time. Building a hypothesis of who these lads may be from the family, the fact the photos were all together etc we could perhaps rule out them being of the surname MELLOR, that chap, my G-Grandfather had no brothers and survived the war. We can rule out the East Riding Connection too, as we have fairly safely identified those two chaps- Banks, soldier and Banks, sailor.

This leaves us with the possibility that they were indeed of the surname MAHER, born in Ireland- Q1- were they recruited in Ireland? There was a big recruitment drive in Dublin for non-Irish regiments too. The father was an ex-soldier/militia from Co. Westmeath area and Athlone had one of the biggest military barracks in Ireland at one stage. If they are Maher/O'Maher boys they may well be poor Joseph's brothers- whether they survived or not we do not know. As many Irish families, they were large and Liverpool/Manchester area were their first ports of call.

I don't know if this information is of any use, but if the Irish link might help....

Once again thanks for all your help, learning stuff by the minute here!

M

[max7474]

For interest this button came out of a scrap box. A strip of brass has been soldered on the back as an improvised slider.

[4thGordons]

Here is the link to the little "I spy" guide to uniforms and equipment Mark mentioned above.

I am working on a new version with a few more pictures currently.

Chris

[MalcolmD]

Hello chaps....

I've found some more information and photographic material. I have added it to the photos on my site (unfortunately this has changed the order of the photos).

Appear to have identified No2 West Riding Rifle as John Berry, managed to clean up the back of the original enough to read. We don't know who this is but it rules out Joseph Maher. Postcard is from Oldham which would fit...

Have noted a number at the bottom of the photo of the two lads together in their Kitchener Uniforms, *1372- could this mean anything.

Have noted on the original photo, i.e. not added later, their appears to be a number of code about waste height to the left of the boy in picture 5 who appears to be carrying a satchel of some sort.

Have found a badly damaged photo showing positively identified sailor, Banks with a probable brother who, on consultation with others, may be the same as the portrait in No4 with the magazine bandolier running across his chest, the cap badge appears to have two crossed sabres.

Have found other photo showing Manchester Regiment, Lance Corporal in top right (with moustache) may well be John Maher senior, who would have been in his 50's at the time but was an ex-soldier/militia in Ireland. There is another photo of him without rank which may be older.

If anyone is up for another look it would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if I am right in any of this but I am trying my best.

Thanks in advance,

M

[Grovetown]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

4. Mounted or mounted infantry - distinctive shoulder patches.

A sign of this type was worn by 1st Shropshire Yeomanry.

Best wishes,

GT.

[MBrockway]

<snip> Have found a badly damaged photo showing positively identified sailor, Banks with a probable brother who, on consultation with others, may be the same as the portrait in No4 with the magazine bandolier running across his chest, the cap badge appears to have two crossed sabres.

Thanks in advance,

M

M,

The badge of the soldier in the torn photo looks more like the lower half of [Edit: either of the two] one of the North Staffs badges to me, which is a stylised overhand knot.

On the numbers - these are probably the photographer's reference numbers added so the customers could easily order further copies.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

M,

The possible brother of the sailor in new #10 may be the same chap as in the group photo (formerly #9, now still #9)

Here they are side-by-side:

-

Certainly some resemblance?

Incidentally on closer inspection the chap in the group photo (on right above) is not North Staffs but South Staffs

North Staffordshire Regt ..................... South Staffordshire Regt

-

The North Staffs Prince of Wales feathers have the Ich Dien scrolls springing from their base, the badge in the photo does not. Also, in the photo, the ends of the main scroll move upwards not downwards showing this is definitely South Staffs.

The spanner in the works is that in the torn photo (on left above) these scroll ends appear to move downwards suggesting the North Staffs! If only the tear had not taken off the top of the badge - Murphy's Law strikes again!

Now I'm really foxed!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

M,

We have a torn picture of a sailor Stoker J.W.Banks with a probable brother probably in North Staffs or South Staffs.

There is a Pte Henry Banks, 32324, North Staffs.

How certain are you that ...

1. Stoker Banks's brother was called Henry Banks
2. Henry Banks was in the East Yorkshire Regt

Cheers,

Mark

[Tinhat47]

I am working on a new version with a few more pictures currently.

I can't wait!

[MalcolmD]

M,

We have a torn picture of a sailor Stoker J.W.Banks with a probable brother probably in North Staffs or South Staffs.

There is a Pte Henry Banks, 32324, North Staffs.

How certain are you that ...

1. Stoker Banks's brother was called Henry Banks
2. Henry Banks was in the East Yorkshire Regt

Cheers,

Mark

Right chaps... it seems that we are back to square one! Every step forward seems like a step backwards! I suppose it's all par for the course with this kind of research.

I agree about the photos, they do look the same don't they? The problem with these old photos is it easy to see what you want to see, i.e. read into things and say to yourself that someone bears a resemblance to someone else when a "neutral" can actually spot the differences/similarities with greater ease!

Stoker James William "William" Banks. HMS Lion, is the only 100% positively identified, born 10th Nov 1893- RN service record confirmed. (If only the Army records were as thorough as the Navy!!!)

Pvte John Mellor is identified by face, but not by unit- the family recognise him and later photos confirm it.

That leaves the others- from family/family research. (Note, that the dates of birth are taken from BMD/GRO registers and so might be up to six months or so later than the actual birth date)

Banks family were originally from North Lincolnshire but moved to Hull in the 1860's.

Banks brothers born at Hull and old enough to have taken part in the conflict were-

Henry Dawson Banks b1897 Hull

William Banks b1897(?) Hull

George Ernest Banks b1899

Hector MacDonald Banks b1900 (named after Boer War General Hector MacDonald releif of Mafeking!!!)

Father of the boys was Henry Banks Snr (b1870 Hull) would have been 44 in 1914 and may be the moustached man in tunic in one of the photos, none of the others appear to be older than 30 although the fashions and styles of the time make them seem older than they are, John Mellor was only about 17/18 in the photo!!! Looks about 30!

We have one soldier who is 99% postive East Yorkshire Regiment and we have another North Staffs who I am pretty certain are on the Banks side of the family, photo seems to confirm it with Stoker Banks and brother side by side, this photo seems to be one of a set that were taken by the family.

The problem is with names like George, Henry, William and so on it is difficult to pin them down to one soldier on the National Archives. Another difficulty I have encountered is that of rank, I presume the medal cards state the final rank of the soldier in question and not necessarily the rank they had in a given photo... see Lance Corporal in Manchester Regiment. I can't find any one above a private on the medal card lists on the National Archive. We also have a wild card of a John Mugan, Cheshire regiment who was killed in 1916. The only additional information I can offer is to the best of our knowledge none of the Banks brothers perished in the conflict other than George Ernest, who died in 1915 although we do not know whether that were conflict related or not. Have found a George Wiliam Banks died 1915 South Staffs, but no biographical information to back it up.

As for the lads in the Liverpool regiment and the Lancs fusiliers, there are a host of possibilities but it is difficult to say for certain, we presume they are probably brothers-in-law of John Mellor, Maher of Irish origin/birth but not much else to be sure. John Berry has popped up in the West Riding Regiment, we have a West Riding name, i.e. Pvte Joseph Maher 1270 (number on the back of medal, posthumous) but no face!

What a tangle!

Thanks for the help...

M