303 Projectiles reversed to cause greater impact damage

[TonyE]

I believe a lot of the deer hunting in NZ is not for meat, but to cull them to prevent crop damage. The NZ forestry Commision even issued free ammunition at one time to farmers with a special headstamp. IIRC it was .270 Winchester calibre.

Regards

TonyE

[Pete1052]

Its done in the US by some so called 'hunters' ...

I've never heard of that being done in the U.S. Soft-point hunting ammunition that would be illegal for military use under the Geneva-Hague Conventions is commonly available for hunting. Military-style ball ammunition is hard to find, with the exception being military surplus. Reloaders often make their own ball ammunition but they use it for for target shooting and plinking, not hunting. In any event, Kiwianzac was talking about New Zealand, not America.

[centurion]

I've never heard of that being done in the U.S. Soft-point hunting ammunition that would be illegal for military use under the Geneva-Hague Conventions is commonly available for hunting. Military-style ball ammunition is hard to find, with the exception being military surplus. Reloaders often make their own ball ammunition but they use it for for target shooting and plinking, not hunting. In any event, Kiwianzac was talking about New Zealand, not America.

When I was doing some research on reversed bullets I came across a number of US gun and hunting related sites where posts boasted about using reversed rounds and their effects. I remember one particularly nasty one about shooting a wild (feral?) pig and it dragging itself back into the undergrowth with a leg blown off. I wasn't answering Kiwianzac directly but a following post querying that some one would use this technique for hunting. In the UK it would almost certainly lead to a prosecution for animal cruelty.

[Tony Ring]

I believe a lot of the deer hunting in NZ is not for meat, but to cull them to prevent crop damage. The NZ forestry Commision even issued free ammunition at one time to farmers with a special headstamp. IIRC it was .270 Winchester calibre.

Regards

TonyE

Tony

As I kicked off this thread I will take the liberty of giving a short history lesson.

After WW2 Govt Deer Cullers issued with 303 rifles that were cut down and firing x army amo, were tasked with reducing the then large deer populations that were knocking the native bush about. I can only speak for the South Island where I have done a lot of shooting but presume the same was for the North Island. In those days they were paid by the animal they shot (usually they had to produce the ears and tail with a strip of skin from down the spine so they could not double dip by claiming for the whole skin from the same animal). They were paid a lot extra for a complete dried skin however these could be very heavy to transport in large numbers. Some shooters had Ex Army Bren Gun carriers to transport the skins down our flat river beds whereas most had pack horses.

Deer shooting became a sport and over time many like myself started out with a 303 with open sights and then graduated to something with more punch and telescopic sights. My friends went for the 308 & I went for the 7x57. The 270 was also poplular.

In the 1960s Venision was being exported to I think Germany and they started shooting from choppers with various makes of semi autos. At first it was simple to round up the deer by screaming across the bush line high up in the mountains with an electronic siren on your skids forcing out the deer into clearings for an easy head shot. After being shot the deer was gutted and then attached to a strop and flown out to a area where the freezer truck was parked. Some of the gutters were very casual and would sit on the deer with their arms around the strop as it was being flown along. Depending on the size of the animal it was quite common to see a chooper flying over with 4 or 5 deer hanging below.

This went on for a number of years and when I was a cop in the West Coast there were numerous complaints about poachers flying choppers with their ID numbers covered. Some were even shot at by angry weekend hunters. Many of the chopper pilots were x Vietnam and scared the pants off me when I flew with them. No nerve what so ever and I can think of at least 4 who were killed.

The bottom fell out of the meat market so they went for live deer recovery and used net guns, tranquiliser darts etc. Some of the more stupid / brave would stand on the skids as the chopper ran the deer down and then jumped onto them cowboy style with a length of rope to bind the legs. There has been some great TV footage of this activity.

Live deer recovery seems to have fallen off as deer farms now have to free of TB etc and have a breeding history.

The weekend shooter still has an opportunity but its still hard going in the South Island owing to the B......mountains that get higher every year. Many shooters now fly in by Chopper to back country huts to shoot deer, Thar or Chamois or the depths of Fiordland where there are Wapiti. I know some shooters that use magnums to knock these (Wapiti) over !!!

Deer in small numbers still came out to feed on farmers paddocks and spotlighting is a good way of knocking them down. Usually they go straight into the meat safe so clean shots are preferred.

Anyhow getting back to the subject of this thread - many years ago whilst staying in an old back country hut I found an old sock under the bunk that had about 12x 303 bullets stuffed in it. These were military issue solid tip but all had been worked on. A hacksaw or similar had been used on all 12 with different amounts of the projectile tip being cut off. Some were short like wad cutters and others still came to a semi point. Some had been drilled out and what I suspect to be candle wax inserted to give a dum dum effect. I know that the hut was used by Govt deer cullers years ago, the sock was falling apart with age and the cases were covered in green gunk so there is a connection. This surprised me as a skin would be no good after that went ripping through it.

Food for thought.

Tony

[TonyE]

Thanks for that. I knew about the hunting from choppers, but not about the tricks that were performed!

I knew Lynn Harris from the NZ Forestry Commission well and it was he who told me about the .270 ammo.

Cutting the tips off military spitzer bullets with open bases is a dodgy occupation, as it is vey easy for a bullet to strip the envelope and leave it in the bore. Next shot results in a bulged barrel (or worse if unlucky). See my post No. 110 in this thread for a picture of what can happen.

Regards

TonyE

[Robert Dunlop]

Mick, Tony has listed the large mammals that can be found in NZ. All introduced of course. Prior to the European explorers, there was only a native bat and rat. This is why there were so many varieties of flightless birds, including the Kiwi.

Robert

[max7474]

There has been much discussion about the use of reversed bullets to pierce armour. A lot of it has unfortunately been ill informed. The science behind such a thing is thus. A thin sheet of metal is defeated by the force of the bulet and 'petalling' of the metal results as the metal is forced apart. However the conventional bullet is defeated by thicker armour as the pointed nose is often unable to force its way through the armour. In many cases where penetration is not achieved the bullet lacks the force to push its way throught the armour and are either deflected or deformed. However when a reversed bullet hits thin armour plate instead of the bullet's point trying to 'push' the metal out of the way, the blunt force of the flat end causes a different effect and may cause sheering of the metal which pushes a plug of metal out of the armour plate and allows the bulet to enter.

This is all to do with the forces exerted on the plate and will be affected by the make up of the round itself. Cranfield University's ballistics dept was commissioned by a TV company a few years ago to conduct scientific experiements which proved this. This was in repsosne to the 'urban myth' of reversed bullets in WW1 after a British tank was discovered with german bullet penetration. If it had been fired at with rifle bullets in the conventional 'point-first way it should have defeated them.

I would add that this only works at relatively short ranges as the KE of the reversed round diminishes at a greater rate than the pointed nose projectile due to its poorer aero dynamic performance. It is by its very nature a more unstable round.

[Radlad]

a British tank was discovered with german bullet penetration.

Could these holes not have been caused by something like a T-Gewerh , I handled one once, it was in Sam Cummins collection at Interarms in Manchester. I don't know how effective they were but it was certainly a fiercesome beast. can't remember the calibre , only that it was quite large.

[TonyE]

T-Gehwer was 13mm calibre.

Here is the round with a .303 alongside for comparison.

Regards

TonyE

[Tony Ring]

Thanks for that. I knew about the hunting from choppers, but not about the tricks that were performed!

I knew Lynn Harris from the NZ Forestry Commission well and it was he who told me about the .270 ammo.

Cutting the tips off military spitzer bullets with open bases is a dodgy occupation, as it is vey easy for a bullet to strip the envelope and leave it in the bore. Next shot results in a bulged barrel (or worse if unlucky). See my post No. 110 in this thread for a picture of what can happen.

Regards

TonyE

Tony

Thanks for that. Refreshed my memory by looking up post 110. I agree !!!

I presume my "doctored" ammo resulted from a lonely shooter filling in time waiting for the rain to stop. The then issue ball ammo if missing a vital organ or bone would not expand on impact and would be a "through & through". Taking off the tip although foolish, would give you the edge. By the time I commenced deer shooting with my 303 Jungle Carbine both hollow nose and lead tip were commercially available.

From memory there used to be wild pigs in the area of the hut and possibly these were the reason for the modification as wild pork is nice. Pigs can be hard to drop especially if they are running towards you with their tusks "flashing in the sun". Pigs prefer to skulk around in knee - waist high dense fern and when you see fern tops moving fast in your direction its wise to look for the nearest tree. Pig dogs are esential and if you are completely mad they will hold the pig to allow you to stick it with a knife !!!

Another method is using a 12g shotgun and prior to rifled slugs being available some brave souls would mix melted wax with the lead shot to keep it together for close range shots at pigs.

A book by the late Barry Crump who was a Govt Deer Culler - "A good Keen Man" is worth reading.

Thank you for your time.

Tony

[max7474]

Could these holes not have been caused by something like a T-Gewerh , I handled one once, it was in Sam Cummins collection at Interarms in Manchester. I don't know how effective they were but it was certainly a fiercesome beast. can't remember the calibre , only that it was quite large.

That is the point - it was rifle bullets and not AT bullets.

[bob lembke]

You would certainly think that the T-Gewehr would have holed a WW I tank if fairly close and fairly butt on. How about the German hardened rounds ("S" ??) issued for MGs as well as rifles? Later in the war I think that there was an effort to have each MG have a box or two of the ammo available.

I have generally doubted this reversed bullet business but perhaps it works close-up. I would think that the dual problems of falling kenetic energy and inaccuracy would make it ineffective at any range. But would the damn thing work in the action? Not a lot of use if it jams your rifle, or even blows it up. Probably varies from action to action.

If all of this has been decided and posted please ignore my question.

Bob

[Robert Dunlop]

"A good Keen Man" is worth reading.

Ah, brings back memories. Thanks Tony.

Robert

[MikB]

However when a reversed bullet hits thin armour plate instead of the bullet's point trying to 'push' the metal out of the way, the blunt force of the flat end causes a different effect and may cause sheering of the metal which pushes a plug of metal out of the armour plate and allows the bulet to enter.

...

I would add that this only works at relatively short ranges as the KE of the reversed round diminishes at a greater rate than the pointed nose projectile due to its poorer aero dynamic performance. It is by its very nature a more unstable round.

I agree with much of this, and that the KE will be more rapidly degraded with range than it would be for a right-way-round projectile. For penetrative capability, I'd express it in terms of localised cylindrical force around the circumference of the projectile base building rapidly to a very high value square to the surface of the plate and thus tending to shear out a circular slug, in contrast to (in a normal round) a conical pattern of forces radiating from the POI of the meplat building up less rapidly as the point collapses - the latter being less effectively concentrated because multidirectional and, as a result of the longer time building, of a lower maximum instantaneous value.

However, base-first is in fact the more stable attitude aerodynamically, which is why many types of ball round arrive that way at the end of long, high trajectories. That doesn't mean the accuracy of reversed rounds would be competitive against standard ball, though.

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

As has been covered several times trials were carried out by the British - firing ball, reversed bullets and K rounds against armour plate (as you'd expect them to do). There is even a link to a photo of a plate used in these trials. There is no evidence that the effect described actually occurred.

Bob from 1917 (early) onwards there was an instruction that all infantrymen should carry one clip of K rounds (again I think this has already been posted on)

[max7474]

Just to clarify there is scientific evidence that this effect occurs. It has been demonstrated on a range under laboratory conditions. The science is proved - what went on in 1918 is the debatable bit.

[centurion]

Just to clarify there is scientific evidence that this effect occurs. It has been demonstrated on a range under laboratory conditions. The science is proved - what went on in 1918 is the debatable bit.

Well it didn't work on a range in non Laboratory conditions in 1915

[MikB]

This is becoming pointless...

[Bombadier]

I have seen a demonstration where a steel dart is fired under strictly controlled conditions at a sheet of aluminium about 1cm thick. When the slug has a pointy end, it sticks in the aluminium without totally coming through the other side.

A flat ended "dart" of the same weight and fired under the same conditions punches a neat circular slug out of the metal and carries on through into the distance.

I had the plates at work but they seem to have gone in a clear out.

Thought this may be of interest.

Nigel

[centurion]

I have seen a demonstration where a steel dart is fired under strictly controlled conditions at a sheet of aluminium about 1cm thick. When the slug has a pointy end, it sticks in the aluminium without totally coming through the other side.

A flat ended "dart" of the same weight and fired under the same conditions punches a neat circular slug out of the metal and carries on through into the distance.

I had the plates at work but they seem to have gone in a clear out.

Thought this may be of interest.

Nigel

Yes but it isn't a reversed jacketed lead Mauser bullet fired at a sheet of armour plate. Tests of these in 1915 did not punch a hole clear through

[max7474]

1915 was a year before tank armour made it on the battlefield - different armours (thickness/quality/ manufacture) are affected differently. What was the 1915 plate made of, how thick, what was the makers technique, how brittle was it compared to tank plate etc etc. I have presented a scientific fact and leave it there and I will comment no more as it is indeed 'pointless' continuing.

[centurion]

1915 was a year before tank armour made it on the battlefield - different armours (thickness/quality/ manufacture) are affected differently. What was the 1915 plate made of,

Same stuff that the tanks were plated with - thats why the tests were done - to see how thick it needed to be

[gew98]

Its done in the US by some so called 'hunters', I've seen reports of animals incurring horrific but not immediately fatal wounds

Where did you get this puffy fluff from ?. The quality soft point factory loaded and separately available bullets for relaoding is so abundant in the USA there would be zero need to due such . Especially as the most basic idot attempting to do such would almost certainly damage the ammunition. In all my years I've never seen anyone bother doing such a bullet reversal. You see over here with such an available selection of bullets for hunting it makes no common nor economical sense. Now there are some jackarse that get fined if caught hunting with ball ammo as it almost always tends to inflict wounds that turn fatal from inefction etc etc as they always overpenetrate more so if they find no bone mass in the animal.

So please in the future don't talk out your **** unless you do your homework.

[centurion]

Where did you get this puffy fluff from ?. The quality soft point factory loaded and separately available bullets for relaoding is so abundant in the USA there would be zero need to due such . Especially as the most basic idot attempting to do such would almost certainly damage the ammunition. In all my years I've never seen anyone bother doing such a bullet reversal. You see over here with such an available selection of bullets for hunting it makes no common nor economical sense. Now there are some jackarse that get fined if caught hunting with ball ammo as it almost always tends to inflict wounds that turn fatal from inefction etc etc as they always overpenetrate more so if they find no bone mass in the animal.

So please in the future don't talk out your **** unless you do your homework.

If you'd bothered to read one of my subsequent postings you'd have seen that I found it on a number of hunting and gun related forums in the USA where people boasted about it! If you want to be insulting can I have the mods permission to say what I really think about your posting?

[eviltaxman]

Gew98.

Refrain from insults please. This is a family site and, as such, utterings like this can/will be offensive to others. This is from the Forum Rules (please feel free to refresh your memory);

Respect for your fellow member

You will not use profane language.

You will not post messages that are in any way racist, sexist, abusive or obscene.

You will not incite or be aggressive in tone.

You will respect the right of others to express their opinion.

Forum Rules here

Can we therefore please return to the topic in question and stop the insults??

can I have the mods permission to say what I really think about your posting?

Centurion... er, no