303 Projectiles reversed to cause greater impact damage

[Tony Ring]

Can someone please confirm the truth about some WW1 British front line soldiers reversing their 303 projectiles so that the base / flat end of the bullet hits the target with a greater impact. I have heard that these were used against German snipers in the front lines who used sheet metal plates with loop holes to protect themselves. The reversed projectile impacting on the outside of the plate and blowing metal fragments off the rear and into the face of the person sitting behind it.

Truth or fiction ??

I would have thought that a blunt nose projectile in effect going backwards would be difficult to keep on target.

Tony

[4thGordons]

Tony there is a very extensive thread about this HERE..... (click click) not sure it will answer all your questions but you can have a good read!

Chris

[Tony Ring]

Tony there is a very extensive thread about this HERE..... (click click) not sure it will answer all your questions but you can have a good read!

Chris

Chris.

That was a can of worms. Did not realise it was the topic of a previous thread although I did look for one before posting. Did not go back far enough !!

Still confused but accept that there is a posibility it did happen. I used to be a keen deer shooter and had enough trouble hitting my target with a proper projectile at 100 yds.

Thank you for your assistance.

Tony

[MikB]

Truth or fiction ??

I would have thought that a blunt nose projectile in effect going backwards would be difficult to keep on target.

Tony

I'll repeat the substance of what I posted on the other thread.

I think that a bullet arriving base-first as a flat-faced punch would exert much more instantaneous force than a collapsing point because of the shorter time-period over which the force would develop. It might therefore pierce a plate which a point-first impact might not.

However, owing to the nature of the charge and the geometry of case and bullet, reversal of the bullet so as to support it properly for presentation to the rifling on loading is much easier with simple home-made trench tools for 7,92 than for 303. It's not easy to see how it could have been done by the British in a way that would provide usable accuracy.

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

The issue 303 was double crimped and varnished which would make it very difficult for a man in the trenches to reverse the bullet - he'd probably need access to a work bench, vice and possibly armourers tools.

[TonyE]

....and as has been said in previous threads, the wad and tightly packed cordite would make replacing the bullet nigh on impossible. However. I suppose it would be possible with either US made ammo or later British Mark VIIz, both of which had loose nitro-cellulose propellant.

The problem of German sniper shields was a problem that received considerable attention from the Munitions Design Committee. Potential solutions ranged from purchasing Express (big game) rifles to considering rebarrelling the Pattern '13 rifles in store to .450 calibre to developing a .276" AP bullet. In the end, the introduction of the Mark VIIW AP round provided the answer.

My apologies if all this is a re-cap of the previous threads.

I do believe the Germans did it though against tanks before the K-Munitions (SmK) became available in quantity.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

I do believe the Germans did it though against tanks before the K-Munitions (SmK) became available in quantity.

There is documented evidence of German prisoners being found with reversed ammo long before tanks were introduced. I think I quoted some of this in the previous thread. I have seen no clear evidence of reversed rounds being used against tanks. K rounds were actually issued for anti tank work before the first tanks appeared at Flers (there was a leak of French Schnieder development) and again I've quoted a German eye witness account previously.

[59165]

Heres a full German charger at Bullecourt museum.It was dug & has not been altered since found;

[Old War Skule]

From the book, "Out of Nowhere," pages 87-88, reference is made to using big game rounds from the .450 to .600 with success against the sniper shields. However, it didn't take the Germans long to simply double the shields and stop even the .600 Express.

I would think the reversed rounds would be intended to cause a more debilitating wound.

[centurion]

From the book, "Out of Nowhere," pages 87-88, reference is made to using big game rounds from the .450 to .600 with success against the sniper shields. However, it didn't take the Germans long to simply double the shields and stop even the .600 Express.

I would think the reversed rounds would be intended to cause a more debilitating wound.

That was my theory in the previous thread, especially since reports of their use date from early 1915. Some prisoners taken with them in their possession claimed they were for wire cutting and there is a (German) account of a whole German unit using them in this manner. However it became a shooting offence to be captured with them in one's possession.

[bob lembke]

The basic idea seems really flawed for multiple reasons. However, this might not have stopped some people from trying it. TonyE has extraordinary expertise on small arms and he states that the very extraction and reversal of the bullet would be very difficult on most British ammunition. Additionally:

1. How could the rifle feed? I would not think that it would. Would these rounds be hand-fed, one by one? Your rifle would not be ready for rapid fire.

2. I would think that there were many opportunities for serious malfunction on firing, possibly even a burst barrel, very irregular engagement of the rifling, etc., etc. A serious jam of the rifle would be quite possible.

3. But most basically, the round would probably emerge from the barrel with reduced energy, but certainly such a round would rapidly lose velocity. Kenetic energy = 1/2 mass times the square of the velocity. As the velocity drops rapidly, which seems certain, the kenetic energy would drop even more quickly. Either punching thru a plate or knocking off fragments on the other side of the plate ("spalling") requires as much kenetic energy (KE) as possible. Is the counter-sniper shooting at a German sniper 10 or 20 yards away? At typical sniping range there would not be much "KE" left.

4. I only know a bit about ballistics, specifically, but I am a mechanical engineer. I don't see much merit in the arguement that somehow the reversal of the bullet increases impact and/or spalling. If there is such an effect it would be slight, at the very start of the flight of the round, with the rapid loss of KE dwarfing the effect, if any.

5. Accuracy would have to suffer badly.

Seems really silly at ranges over say 20 yards. Not to say that someone might try it.

Bob Lembke

[Mk VII]

Tampering with ammunition of all kinds was prohibited; nonetheless a steady stream of casualties resulted from people interfering with (usually) explosive things that they did not understand.

[MikB]

3. But most basically, the round would probably emerge from the barrel with reduced energy, but certainly such a round would rapidly lose velocity.

Bob Lembke

Undoubtedly the performance and accuracy would be seriously degraded by, say 300 yards. But trench lines and sniper-countersniper engagements were often at much closer ranges - not least because both sides' snipers would often work out into No Mans Land or use forward saps. Hesketh Prichard cites a case of a well-camouflaged German sniper who caused many casualties from less than 70 yards before he was himself killed.

If the reversed bullet delivered any penetrative advantage that might well work usefully out to 100 - 150 yards.

Regards,

MikB

[Old War Skule]

At times in American service, there was evidence of cutting the tip off of a bullet to make a broad, flat tip to cause a severe wound. The problem was that at times the lead core would separate from the jacket in the bore causing a partial obstruction that would ruin the barrel with the next round was fired.

[gew98]

In the end I think the consensus is that the reversed bullets where used to tear up parapets/sandbags and cover around loopholes. That seems their calling .

[Tony Ring]

Heres a full German charger at Bullecourt museum.It was dug & has not been altered since found;

OK - A photograph is worth a thousand words. I heard that it was a British idea but I guess it was open for anyone to use.

Thank you.

Tony

[Tony Ring]

In the end I think the consensus is that the reversed bullets where used to tear up parapets/sandbags and cover around loopholes. That seems their calling .

Gentlemen - A general thank you for all your detailed replies. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

It is appreciated.

Tony

[Mk VII]

Are those actually reversed, and not just steel jacketed projectiles that have rusted away?

[centurion]

Are those actually reversed, and not just steel jacketed projectiles that have rusted away?

Lead (the core) does not rust

[ian turner]

Are those actually reversed, and not just steel jacketed projectiles that have rusted away?

Not rust, but have the tips been removed? These are not .303 are they, and they do not look like the manufactured bullet tail ends either?

[MikB]

Not rust, but have the tips been removed? These are not .303 are they, and they do not look like the manufactured bullet tail ends either?

No. 5 looks reversed - the others are a bit hard to tell; both jacket and core look a lot cruddier and more corroded. No, they're not 303s - the stripper clip is for a rimless case and they're presumably 7,92x57s.

I'd be interested to examine them in more detail. The shoulders of no.2 and no.5 look sharper and further forward than the others. I wonder if they're fakes made up from fired cases to complete the clip?

Incidentally, a soldier expecting to use the charger of 303s behind would've set the caseheads 3 down and 2 up - although as issued, they might well've been as photographed.

Regards,

MikB

[Garron]

It does say in the description above the picture that they are German rounds.

and I quote

Heres a full German charger

Gaz

[ian turner]

Does not really matter their nationality or make, but whether they are reversed rounds or conventional, with the tips missing. If they are reversed, their ends look particularly irregular (discounting the corrosion), so much so as to make the safety of firing of them very questionable.

[Tony Ring]

Does not really matter their nationality or make, but whether they are reversed rounds or conventional, with the tips missing. If they are reversed, their ends look particularly irregular (discounting the corrosion), so much so as to make the safety of firing of them very questionable.

I have been told about a TV doco that involved "researchers" that were digging up WW1 trenches in France and they produced reversed projectiles from British lines and impacted damaged metal plates on the German side. The guy who was fronting this was apparently an "authority". I have been told that his trade mark is a felt hat that he always wears.

Does anyone know of him as apparently he has fronted other WW! battleground docos.

Tony

[MikB]

...they produced reversed projectiles from British lines and impacted damaged metal plates on the German side. The guy who was fronting this was apparently an "authority". I have been told that his trade mark is a felt hat that he always wears.

Tony

If that's so then the rounds require proper inspection to determine how that might have been done.

To reverse a 303 Mk.VII cordite round so as to support the bearing surface of the bullet in the neck, you'd have to drive the point through the pasteboard disc and into the bundle of parallel cordite sticks to some depth. I've never tried this, but you might bulge the shoulder area of the case to the point where you couldn't load it. The nitrocellulose granule 'Z' loads would give a lot more scope, but these wouldn't be standard issue - I don't know if they even existed in WW1, though I'm sure TonyE will.

Regards,

MikB