centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 The guy who was fronting this was apparently an "authority". I have been told that his trade mark is a felt hat that he always wears. And possibly talks through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 I have been told about a TV doco that involved "researchers" that were digging up WW1 trenches in France and they produced reversed projectiles from British lines and impacted damaged metal plates on the German side. The guy who was fronting this was apparently an "authority". I have been told that his trade mark is a felt hat that he always wears. Does anyone know of him as apparently he has fronted other WW! battleground docos. Tony He is a respected WW! historian with a published volume of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 He is a respected WW! historian with a published volume of work. So name him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 From Encyclopaedia Brittanica: When the armies on the western front dug themselves in and the fighting resolved itself into trench warfare there was an insistent demand for some means of protection for the men who had to face rifle fire at close quarters. Innumerable suggestions were made and .a vast number of experiments carried out with a view to producing a bullet-proof material of reasonable weight. The ordinary service bullet, consisting of a cupro-nickel (or in some cases a mild steel) case filled with lead, breaks up fairly easily on a plate of hard steel; but the Germans soon discovered that if the bullet is removed from the cartridge and reversed (i.e. so that the bullet travels with the base or blunt end in front instead of the pointed end) it did not break up but punched a hole in the plate. Every effort was made to defeat this attack, but it was found that even with the use of the best quality of alloy steel available a minimum thickness of half an inch was necessary to stop the reversed bullet at short range. All sorts of materials were employed, but steels were found to be the most efficient, and of these nickel, chrome, manganese, vanadium, molybdenum and zirconium, both singly and in combination, were all tried. The best results, however, were obtained from nickel-chrome plates, sometimes with an addition of one of the rarer metals. While these experiments were being carried out in England the Germans were busy endeavouring to produce something more satisfactory than the reversed bullet which was only effective at short range. In this they were completely successful, and they produced the K or armour-piercing bullet. This consists of an outer envelope of mild steel of the same size and dimensions as the ordinary bullet. In the centre of the envelope is the bullet proper, made of hardened tungsten steel 30 mm. long, 6 mm. in diameter, and pointed at one end. The space between the envelope and the hard bullet is filled with lead. On striking a hard steel plate the outer envelope breaks up, but it and the lead lining appear to perform the function of a cap, and the hardened steel bullet perforates the plate. At ranges up to 60 yd. with a good rifle, and more than this with a rifle in which the rifling has been worn, the armour-piercing bullet is not effective, owing to unsteadiness in flight, but at longer ranges nothing less than half an inch of the best steel is of any use as a protection against a direct hit at the normal. The action of the armour-piercing bullet, however, differs from that of the reversed bullet. The former is a clean penetration of the plate, whereas the latter punches a hole and removes a portion of the plate in the form of a small cylinder. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 I'd be interested to examine them in more detail. The shoulders of no.2 and no.5 look sharper and further forward than the others. I wonder if they're fakes made up from fired cases to complete the clip? MikB Hiya Mik. Anyone who visits Bullecourt can ask Jean to see something from any of the cases,unless there's a bus tour on.He wouldn't mind at all. They aren't clipped,just reversed. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Hiya Mik. Anyone who visits Bullecourt can ask Jean to see something from any of the cases,unless there's a bus tour on.He wouldn't mind at all. They aren't clipped,just reversed. Dave. But in a clip which is what I suspect Mik meant, ie some extras were made up to complete the contents of the clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 So name him! In response to your polite request Peter Barton, I believe, given the descriptions offered above. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 If that's so then the rounds require proper inspection to determine how that might have been done. To reverse a 303 Mk.VII cordite round so as to support the bearing surface of the bullet in the neck, you'd have to drive the point through the pasteboard disc and into the bundle of parallel cordite sticks to some depth. I've never tried this, but you might bulge the shoulder area of the case to the point where you couldn't load it. The nitrocellulose granule 'Z' loads would give a lot more scope, but these wouldn't be standard issue - I don't know if they even existed in WW1, though I'm sure TonyE will. Regards, MikB Mik is absolutely right about the difficulty of reversing .303 bullets in Cordite loaded Mark VII, and it is a point I have made previously in this and former threads. However, the Mark VIIz ammunition was on general issue from 1917 onwards and this would have been much easier. There was no wad and even though the propellant virtually filled the case it would be a simple matter to tip a small fraction out to make room for the bullet. As I have said before, I do not doubt that this was done by the Germans, the anecdotal evidence is too strong, but I do not believe it was done by the British on any scale. By 1917 when the VIIz was available, there were also reasonable British AP rounds in service, first the Mark VIIP (with a .219 inch steel core) and then the much more successful Mark VIIW (with a .250 inch core). I think this thread is going round the same circles that the last one covered! Regrettably, this terrific label is not mine and I only have a scan of a poor photocopy, but it is from a 1917 box of 48 Mark VIIP armour piercing rounds marked as specially selected for snipers. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Example of a French cartridge with reversed bullet. (From end of April to end of May 1915, found in Boezinge east bank of the canal) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulsten Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Does this one add anything from around Bullecourt would you believe, still there by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Several sources attest to the difficulty the ordinary British soldier woud face removing the standard 303 bullet with its double crimping and varnish ,in the fiield . If so any British reversed bullets would be likely to be produced in a work shop. If one is going to go this far then why not replace the bullet rather than modify an existing one? One wonders if the reversed bullet was so effective against armour why neither side produced flat nosed jacketed bullets for armour piercing rather than go to all the trouble of developing relatively expensive pointed ones like the K round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 I think this thread is going round the same circles that the last one covered! Aha, we have a special bullet for going round in circles ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulsten Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Aha, we have a special bullet for going round in circles ... I like it, i like it, i like it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Other French bullets found in Boezinge. I call them boomerang bullets (different degrees). I know some would call them bullets in desperate need of some sort of blue pill. But wouldn't this lead us off Topic ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Serious again. Bottom of the French bullet I posted at 5.22 pm. Maybe interesting to the experts ? Aurel Edit : sorry for the double pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Other French bullets found in Boezinge. I call them boomerang bullets (different degrees). I know some would call them bullets in desperate need of some sort of blue pill. But wouldn't this lead us off Topic ? Aurel Amazing how they've all bent the same way!!! That the Coriolis Effect or something? Would it be the other way if they were fired south of the Equator? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Serious again. Bottom of the French bullet I posted at 5.22 pm. Maybe interesting to the experts ? Aurel Edit : sorry for the double pic. Balle D bullets manufactured at Valence (VE) with metal supplied by Rugles, Usine de Trefillerie et Laminoirs du Havre ® in January 1910 (1.10) Regards TonyE Amazing how they've all bent the same way!!! That the Coriolis Effect or something? Would it be the other way if they were fired south of the Equator? Regards, MikB No, but if the prevailing wind was from the east they would of course bend the other way! Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Given the different composition of French bullets to British and German ones wouldn't they (reversed ones) act in a different manner on striking something hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Given the different composition of French bullets to British and German ones wouldn't they (reversed ones) act in a different manner on striking something hard? One would think so, but it depends if the effect (from German and British bullets) was the result of some kind of Monroe effect where the lead core melted on impact and produced a jet stream of molten metal that cut through the steel plate, ot whether it was the result of all the kinetic energy being delivered by the flat base of the bullet striking first. As we have both said in the past, no-one has yet produced a satisfactory scientific explanation of why the alleged armour piercing capability should be so. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk VII Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 If it was done, and there seems to be an accumulation of evidence, then the absence of documentation suggests a field expedient for want of anything better. They did it because they thought it worked, like hanging numerous track plates on the tank hull in WW2, despite official investigations showing that the additional protection so obtained was minimal-to-non-existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 Aha, we have a special bullet for going round in circles ... Bullets fired from the Krummlauf are WW2 and off-topic!! Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ring Posted 9 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2009 In response to your polite request Peter Barton, I believe, given the descriptions offered above. Antony Spot on. It was Peter Barton. I have just confirmed this with another source. Is he a recognised authority in these matters ? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ring Posted 9 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2009 One would think so, but it depends if the effect (from German and British bullets) was the result of some kind of Monroe effect where the lead core melted on impact and produced a jet stream of molten metal that cut through the steel plate, ot whether it was the result of all the kinetic energy being delivered by the flat base of the bullet striking first. As we have both said in the past, no-one has yet produced a satisfactory scientific explanation of why the alleged armour piercing capability should be so. Regards TonyE Rather confusing for a simple Kiwi however I understand the blunt force impact on the outer surface of the snipers plate showered fragments from the reverse side without actual penetration. Anyone sitting close and peering through the loop hole received a face full !!! I am told that Peter Barton produced such a plate from a trench with corresponding impact mark and a rough area on the reverse side. Maybe it was more rust than pieces of metal plate flying around but enough to make your eyes water and keep your head down. I do appreciate all your input including the Aussie boomerang projectiles. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 9 September , 2009 Share Posted 9 September , 2009 But in a clip which is what I suspect Mik meant, ie some extras were made up to complete the contents of the clip. Sorry,Mr.C. Bit confused by that. When I said 'clipped',I meant that the bullets did not have the ends clipped off(you remember the photo of the Lebel rounds in the other thread that was disproved?),not a charger,which is what ,I suppose,many a folk would call a 'clip' but would be wrong to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 10 September , 2009 Share Posted 10 September , 2009 But in a clip which is what I suspect Mik meant, ie some extras were made up to complete the contents of the clip. Yes - that is what I meant. There was nothing in my thoughts at the time of clipping points off bullets with any sort of shear or cutter. I just wondered if actually only 3 live modified rounds had been found, but the finders or exhibitors thought it would be better to show a full stripper-clip/charger, so put together a couple more out of fired cases and loose bullets. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What led my thoughts on to this was the difference from the 303 charger behind in the picture. I remembered the 3 down - 2 up rule for overlapping the rims, and then wondered why 2 of the shoulders in the foreground looked slightly higher - and perhaps sharper - than the others in a charger of rimless rounds with no overlap. Such variation would be pretty unlikely within a batch of cases as manufactured. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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