Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Hi. I'm the new man here whose just joined today! Fred's my name. I'm from the States, Missouri to be exact. But, on with my question. Could anyone please tell me if there were any British combat units that used the Long Lee Enfields in The Great War? Ive two Magazine Lee Enfields that were converted into Charger Loading Lee Enfields at Vickers in 1909. Both have the protective ears guarding the front sight as well as the updated rear sight with lateral adjustment. One was assembled in 1896 and the other in 1899. However, the serial numbers are just 257 apart which would indicate that during production, the recievers were numbered & then held in storage and taken out at random for assembly as the need arose when the date was stamped onto the wrist of the completed rifle. I've heard of a unit exchanging their long Enfields but I'm wondering if any ere used in combat? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Captain G. Welcome to the Forum. Certainly some (probably quite a lot) of the Territorial Force (that was the part time reserve other than the Regular Army's 'Special Reserve' that was intended for 'Home Service only' but signed the Imperial Service obligation to serve overseas) took the long Lee-Enfield to France and used it. Some of them were still knocking round in 1916 apparently. There were problems with the availability of the correct ammunition. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old War Skule Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Especially early in the war, the Royal Naval Division, the one I can think of right now, used them in Belgium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Hi and welcome This has been discussed a lot on the forum and I have been pretty active in the discussions I am not sure if I can post a link to search results but if you use the search function (top right of the screen) and put in CLLE you will find lots of threads on this that might be of interest. ATTEMPT TO PASTE A LINK TO THE SEARCH RESULTS (CLICK ME) If you look a couple down in this list you can see several discussions on precisly your question. In short - as noted above YES large numbers of CLLEs were used in France & Flanders in action 1914 and 1915. The particular TF Battalion I have an interest in had them when they attacked at Bellewaarde on Sept 25th 1915. I believe they were replaced with SMLEs sometime shortly after that (late 15 early 16). It is uncommon to see pictures of "long" lees after late 1915 in my experience although some units do appear to have still had them in 1916. The ammunition problems have to do with feeding the MkVII round and, more importantly the sighting of the MkVII round which was higher velocity. Converted No1 rifles and LEs have "HV" stamped on the barrel just behind the rear sight. All of this is discussed in previous threads: Any chance of a pic of your rifles? (I have a bit of a thing for Enfields!) Chris (Just one state up in IL!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 [attac hment=109550:pix4156822046.jpg]Hi Chris, Here's a picture of one that I've just bought. It'llbe delivered by mail about Wednessday. The other will have to wait until tomorrow when I can make room for it on my camera (Cell phone camera). The 1896 dated one has a provision for a cleaning or clearing rod. THe one dated 1899 has no provision which tells me that it was made sometime after May of that year when the provision for cleaning or clearing rods was left off of rifles coming out of the armories. Lets see if this eill take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Could the KWC stand for King William's College? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Captain G. Welcome to the Forum. Certainly some (probably quite a lot) of the Territorial Force (that was the part time reserve other than the Regular Army's 'Special Reserve' that was intended for 'Home Service only' but signed the Imperial Service obligation to serve overseas) took the long Lee-Enfield to France and used it. Some of them were still knocking round in 1916 apparently. There were problems with the availability of the correct ammunition. Ian Thankyou Ian. I appreciate the information! Especially early in the war, the Royal Naval Division, the one I can think of right now, used them in Belgium. Thanks kindly for that information Skule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 I am officially VERY envious! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 It was not just the Territorials either. The regular Lowland Division went to Gallipoli with long rifles due to shortages of SMLEs. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 54th East Anglian Division did not get SMLE's until 1917! G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 I heard a little while ago that some long Lee Enfields were ploughed up on the Loos Battlefield a few years ago, so certainly in front line action to October 1915. Fabulous rifle Captain G. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 54th East Anglian Division did not get SMLE's until 1917! Similarly 42nd Division - they'd been in Egypt, Gallipoli and Egypt again from September 1914 until spring 1917. Didn't get SMLE's until they arrived in France (along with those new-fangled gas mask thingies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 It was not just the Territorials either. The regular Lowland Division went to Gallipoli with long rifles due to shortages of SMLEs. Regards TonyE Hello, Tony: 52 Lowland Division was a Territorial Force Division. It was mobilised en masse in August 1914, went east in '15, to F&F in '18, was demobilised after the War and reconstituted as a Territorial Army Division in 1920. It was again mobilised en masse in 1939. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Very nice weapons and I too am enviuos. One day I hope to have an example. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Thankyou Joe, I've been wanting one for many years myself. My wife bought me my first last year for my birthday and she bought me the 2nd one this year for my birthday. Tounge in cheek, I slyly kidded her that I'd need a third CLLE some day to complete a stack of arms. I'd better be VERY good and attentive if I expect That to come about. I just don't see them up for sale though. Similarly 42nd Division - they'd been in Egypt, Gallipoli and Egypt again from September 1914 until spring 1917. Didn't get SMLE's until they arrived in France (along with those new-fangled gas mask thingies) Thanks John! I heard a little while ago that some long Lee Enfields were ploughed up on the Loos Battlefield a few years ago, so certainly in front line action to October 1915. Fabulous rifle Captain G. John I sure do appreciate the information John, thanks. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 54th East Anglian Division did not get SMLE's until 1917! G Very interesting information! It seems that I can refer to these as definitely WW I rifles. Thanks, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 It was not just the Territorials either. The regular Lowland Division went to Gallipoli with long rifles due to shortages of SMLEs. Regards TonyE Thanks Tony. Could you please comfirm that the CLLE's that have been updated with the rear sights that have lateral adjustments are meant to use the Mk VII ammo? I think that I read this but I'm not sure. The one that I currently have in the gun case seems to cycle Mk VII rounds just fine. It's identicle to the one that's arriving in a day or so. I'd hate to think that I couldn't shoot it with all of the Mk VII ammo I've bought by the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 I shoot mine with Mk VII ball, but only at the short range of 100yds, never had any trouble. Although to minimise wear I am considering going over to "lead" with a gas check.. Had a nasty shock when some commercial ammunition turned out to have a steel core under a copper jacket. Nasty! G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 I was having a closer look to see if I could clearly identify the Mark which I think is officially a CLLE MkI* (can you confirm that is what is stamped on the left of the wrist under the long range sight peep? I can't read it on the photo.) Couple of observations: The E on the barrel indicates Enfield rifling - distinguishes it from the earlier shallower Meford Rifling. The rear sight (if modified for MkVII ammunition) should have a V shaped notch and be graduated to 1900 yards, it should also be stamped CL. The dial sight plate (if modified for MkVII) "should" be graduated to 2700 yards and also marked CL (Cf Skennerton "The Lee Enfield Story"). These changes were approved in Oct 1914. It looks to me as though your dial sight base is marked from 1600 to 2800 yards? I think this would make it a later base (IIRC the SMLE MkI/II was so marked, it seems to be stamped II?) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Very interesting information! It seems that I can refer to these as definitely WW I rifles. Thanks, Fred Fred, You certainly can. I can probably name the blokes for you but can't give you the serial numbers of the weapons in this photo CLINK LINK. 1/10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment) Territorial Force Ypres Salient, Spring 1915. Absolutely no financial interest in the (excellent) book other than the hole it left in my bank account; the link is provided for information only. Ian PS Having just reread your post, I think you are talking about your particular rifles as being WW1 (I did not follow the techy talk closely enough) but I have posted a link to the photo anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Fred, You certainly can. I can probably name the blokes for you but can't give you the serial numbers of the weapons in this photo CLINK LINK. 1/10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment) Territorial Force Ypres Salient, Spring 1915. Absolutely no financial interest in the (excellent) book other than the hole it left in my bank account; the link is provided for information only. Ian PS Having just reread your post, I think you are talking about your particular rifles as being WW1 (I did not follow the techy talk closely enough) but I have posted a link to the photo anyway! Ian, that photo is Fantastic! The faces of the men are clear and so vivid, I could recognise them today if they were to walk past me in a crowd. The Charger Loading Enfields are evident as well along with one SMLE posessed by one man. Interesting, I wonder if he chose to have it over the long rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 [attac hment=109588:pix4156827062.jpg] Chris, I'll post these and see if they come out. Also, I'll go get my other CLLE and see what the specs on it are for you. be back with the info...also pictures if I can safly store the photo's I have filling up my cell phone camera elswhere. They're of my dog who just recently passed on and I don't want to loose them before I can download them on a disc or in the computer. I'm software challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted 18 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Chris, both of the rifles have identicle sideplates and rear sights. The rear site leaves are graduated to 1900 yards on both. The side plates are both graduated from 1600 to 2800 yards. The one in my lap is marked on the right wrist under the bolt handle as LE I There is no star next to the "I". However, because it was put together in 1896, it started out as a MkI and then was updated to a MkI* and later to CLLE. On the left wrist, there is VSM 1908 (or 1909) CLLE I* Until I recieve the other tomorrow or Wednesday, I cannot be sure what is on it other than what we can all make out in the photo's . The wood on the one I have now is near perfect with all of the stamping sharp and clear, but the wrist markings are less sharp. There is the date of 1910 stamped above the enfield arsenal stamp on the right side of the butt. with the Number 1 above that. Otherwise, the markings are identicle on both rifles there. The bore on this rifle is Mint and I don't use that term lightly. I understand that the other bore is extremely good also. When I recieve the new one, I'll photograph them together for comparison. Fred Oh yes, this rifle had the old magazine with the tab that swivels replaced with the newer No1 MkIII type. Another indication that it did and can use the Mk VII ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOER WAR MAUSER Posted 18 August , 2009 Share Posted 18 August , 2009 Hi. I'm the new man here whose just joined today! Fred's my name. I'm from the States, Missouri to be exact. But, on with my question. Could anyone please tell me if there were any British combat units that used the Long Lee Enfields in The Great War? Ive two Magazine Lee Enfields that were converted into Charger Loading Lee Enfields at Vickers in 1909. Both have the protective ears guarding the front sight as well as the updated rear sight with lateral adjustment. One was assembled in 1896 and the other in 1899. However, the serial numbers are just 257 apart which would indicate that during production, the recievers were numbered & then held in storage and taken out at random for assembly as the need arose when the date was stamped onto the wrist of the completed rifle. I've heard of a unit exchanging their long Enfields but I'm wondering if any ere used in combat? Thanks Hi buddy ,very interesting about the long lee conversion's to the charger feed system,I used a long lee recently at a Boer war reenactment event at Kelmarsh Hall England,at the start of the battle I had ten rounds in the magazine, of course in the heat of the battle the magazine is quickly emptied reloading without the charger system is slow ,you can understand how much an advantage the BOERS had using the MAUSER ,bye the way I portray a BOER not a BRITISH soldier the BOERS used a lot of captured long lee's also they were used by the ROYAL NAVY IN WW1 I hope this helps Fred GHR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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