Fears for bodies of the fallen Fromelles diggers

[John_Hartley]

Iain Banks, the director of Glasgow University's archaeological research division, called for a formal inquiry into the tender process. "I do not wish to interfere with the project [but] the statements are very concerning and …

HAH!

Is that the smell of sour grapes wafting by?

Have to say it is getting harder by the day to take much of this seriously anymore.

[Ken Lees]

Well, did the original post mention the words "journalist" or "newspaper"?

At that point I stopped taking it seriously and skipped to the end of the thread.

My view is, if it's published in a newpaper, it's likely to be distorted, self-promoting, profit/sales-driven rubbish.

Cynical? Moi?

[squirrel]

John - "Is that the smell of sour grapes wafting by?"

It does appear that the critcisms are originating from those who were unsuccesful in their bids.

Ken - "My view is, if it's published in a newpaper, it's likely to be distorted, self-promoting, profit/sales-driven rubbish."

A friend suggested last week that there were only three things in a newspaper that were absolutly true, the day, date and year!

[Victoria Burbidge]

It’s worth pointing out that Air Commodore Steve Martin, the head of Australian Defence staff in London, has stated that the project is now on track, but that Oxford Archaeology had started remedial drainage work when it realised that ''there was a better way of doing things''.

V.

[Victoria Burbidge]

The Australian - August 20, 2009

A TOTAL of 214 sets of human remains have now been recovered from mass graves near the World War I battlefield of Fromelles, most of them Diggers.

Defence Personnel Minister Greg Combet told parliament yesterday that work had been completed on seven of the eight burial pits at Pheasant Wood, where up to 300 Australian and British soldiers were buried by the Germans in late July 1916.

Mr Combet said "full anthropological analysis" had been completed for remains from three of the burial pits.

"That equates to 104 soldiers having been analysed. Of these, I can advise the house that the overwhelming majority are Australian," he said.

DNA-testing of recovered remains by British firm LGC Forensics will soon begin under a five-year contract with the Australian army having already established a data base for descendants of the Diggers who may be among those buried at Pheasant Wood.

"While we are hopeful that collection of DNA will allow us to identify some of our soldiers, an unfortunate reality is that our chances of doing so still remain quite low. This is due to the complex nature of the identification process," Mr Combet said.

He said the total number of recoverable remains could now be less than 300, compared with an initial estimate of up to 400.

Artefacts recovered from the burial pits so far have included train tickets, books, buttons, military webbing, a gas mask and an Australian army rising sun badge.

The battle of Fromelles, on July 19-20, 1916, resulted in the First Australian Imperial Force's Fifth division suffering 5533 casualties -- the heaviest loss in a single day's battle in any war fought by Australians.

The burial site at Pheasant Wood was discovered in 2007 after years of painstaking detective work by retired Melbourne schoolteacher, Lambis Englezos.

In a detailed statement to parliament yesterday on the Fromelles excavation, Mr Combet strongly defended the decision by the Australian and British governments to choose Oxford Archaeology as the site excavator.

"They have been methodically undertaking the archeological excavation of the sets of remains layer by layer in each grave, with due care and process, and the operation is being fully documented in accordance with world's best practice," Mr Combet said.

Oxford Archaeology had also carefully managed water levels at the site so no remains had been compromised by the very heavy rain experienced in late May.

DNA samples are being taken from every set of remains recovered from Pheasant Wood, with testing of each sample to start at LGC Forensics' London-based laboratory at the end of this month.

DNA matches with possible family descendants will be possible until 2014, with LGC Forensics adopting a number of new techniques to obtain DNA from each set of remains.

[topsey1234]

The Australian - August 20, 2009

A TOTAL of 214 sets of human remains have now been recovered from mass graves near the World War I battlefield of Fromelles, most of them Diggers.

Defence Personnel Minister Greg Combet told parliament yesterday that work had been completed on seven of the eight burial pits at Pheasant Wood, where up to 300 Australian and British soldiers were buried by the Germans in late July 1916.

Mr Combet said "full anthropological analysis" had been completed for remains from three of the burial pits.

"That equates to 104 soldiers having been analysed. Of these, I can advise the house that the overwhelming majority are Australian," he said.

DNA-testing of recovered remains by British firm LGC Forensics will soon begin under a five-year contract with the Australian army having already established a data base for descendants of the Diggers who may be among those buried at Pheasant Wood.

"While we are hopeful that collection of DNA will allow us to identify some of our soldiers, an unfortunate reality is that our chances of doing so still remain quite low. This is due to the complex nature of the identification process," Mr Combet said.

He said the total number of recoverable remains could now be less than 300, compared with an initial estimate of up to 400.

Artefacts recovered from the burial pits so far have included train tickets, books, buttons, military webbing, a gas mask and an Australian army rising sun badge.

The battle of Fromelles, on July 19-20, 1916, resulted in the First Australian Imperial Force's Fifth division suffering 5533 casualties -- the heaviest loss in a single day's battle in any war fought by Australians.

The burial site at Pheasant Wood was discovered in 2007 after years of painstaking detective work by retired Melbourne schoolteacher, Lambis Englezos.

In a detailed statement to parliament yesterday on the Fromelles excavation, Mr Combet strongly defended the decision by the Australian and British governments to choose Oxford Archaeology as the site excavator.

"They have been methodically undertaking the archeological excavation of the sets of remains layer by layer in each grave, with due care and process, and the operation is being fully documented in accordance with world's best practice," Mr Combet said.

Oxford Archaeology had also carefully managed water levels at the site so no remains had been compromised by the very heavy rain experienced in late May.

DNA samples are being taken from every set of remains recovered from Pheasant Wood, with testing of each sample to start at LGC Forensics' London-based laboratory at the end of this month.

DNA matches with possible family descendants will be possible until 2014, with LGC Forensics adopting a number of new techniques to obtain DNA from each set of remains.

One thing I forgot to mention from the relatives meeting on Monday was mention that X ray techniques are being used to identify both artefacts, their position and thus give an indication of the uniform/nationality of the soldier.

It would appear that eyelets on uniforms were different positions on British and Australian uniforms. These are very small, heavily corroded and fragile and unless X rayed whilst in the earth they can dissolve and disappear when remains are washed.

This may account for the type of excavations taking place. If you think about it if you removed soil layer by layer these sorts of artefacts could disappear due to their size and fragility. If on the other hand they are removed in larger clumps, x rayed and their position noted, etc if they subsequently do not survive then at least in the example I've given on uniforms they have evidence of nationality. There may be very sound reasons for the techniques used and I hope the example I was quoted on Monday helps explain a little more. I do wonder if those who are criticising the the techniques used have sought a rational for them directly?

Richard

[Fedelmar]

might be worth a read

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...6-31477,00.html

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Andrew Upton]

A friend suggested last week that there were only three things in a newspaper that were absolutly true, the day, date and year!

I'm trying to remember who it was that said "trust nothing you read in a newspaper but the date, and even then you should check that against your diary"

[Ian Murphy]

All,

This article is from the Australian "The Age" website:

Fromelles DNA tests set to start in Sept

Belinda Tasker

August 20, 2009 - 10:39AM Australians who believe they are related to the World War I diggers whose remains were discovered in a mass grave in France will begin undergoing DNA tests in September to help unlock the mystery of the soldiers' identities.

A team of about 30 forensic archaeologists and anthropologists have been working since May to recover the bodies of an estimated 250 Australian and British soldiers from the site at Fromelles in the hope some can be identified before all are reburied at a new military cemetery nearby.

The site was opened to the media for the first time on Thursday, providing a rare glimpse of the progress being made amid criticism that some of the work was not up to scratch.

Independent experts overseeing the operation and those on site have staunchly defended the standard of archaeological work, saying it is in line with world's best practice and on track to ensure the soldiers' remains are reinterred with full military honours in July 2010.

So far the bodies of 222 individuals from the Australian and British armies have been unearthed along with a range of artefacts including uniform buckles, boots, badges and handmade metal rings.

About 1,400 Australian and British families who believe they are related to soldiers who disappeared during the notorious battle of Fromelles in July 1916 have come forward, offering to do what they can to help identify the troops found in a series of deep, muddy pits.

Scientists based at DNA analysis firm LGC Forensics in England will begin collecting genetic samples from families in September to check against those taken from each of the soldiers.

If there are matches, there is a strong chance a special identification board made up of Australian and British government representatives and other experts will allow those soldiers to be reburied with a headstone bearing their name.

LGC's forensic scientist overseeing the DNA profiling, Dr James Walker, said families with strong paternal or maternal links to soldiers who disappeared at Fromelles will be asked to provide a swab of cells from the inside of their cheek.

"We could expect the start of the samples from relatives to start coming in from September onwards," he said.

"We could expect in the order of 1,000 of these samples which all have to be processed and put on a database for comparisons with the profiles we get from the (soldiers') remains."

Given that it was more than 90 years since the soldiers were killed, Dr Walker said it could prove difficult to find relatives who still had direct genetic links.

"We can't use standard paternity type testing because of the fact that most of the samples we will be doing comparisons on will be from further down the generation," he said.

"We are going to have a situation where perhaps there will still be graves with unknown names, but hopefully we will have a reasonable number where we can put names to those graves."

Meanwhile, an independent British forensic archaeological and anthropological expert hired to oversee the Fromelles project has defended the adequacy of work carried out on the site by Oxford Archaeology.

Dr Margaret Cox, an academic with more than 30 years' experience, dismissed claims by Belgian battlefield expert Johan Vandewalle that the excavation of the soldiers' remains had been compromised by drainage problems on the site and methods used to retrieve the remains.

"There is not one jot of truth in any of them (the claims)," she said.

"The work being done here has been done to the highest international standards."

© 2009 AAP

[dendonedid]

I just received the following email from Connie Levett who is Foreign Editor for the Sydney Morning Herald:

"Mr Vandevalle was hired by Oxford Archeology, the company chosen to complete the excavation at Fromelles, to undertake emergency drainage and construction works when inclement weather made clear that preparation on site was not adequate to protect the graves from water. He worked on site from June at least two days a week.

We reported his observations, made and recorded by an eminent British historian and co-secretary of the Parliamentary group on battlefield archeology, Peter Barton. We also reported clearly Mr Vandevalle's credentials, including that while he does not have an archeological degree, he is regarded in Europe as a foremost authority on Flanders/Somme soils as well as excavation in such conditions.

Thank you for your interest in this issue. The Herald stands by its story."

[sarge2871]

Prior to going over to the site, when all this kicked off about pits flooding, slap dash work etc...etc... I spent 40mins on the phone with Martial and he told me everything was going ok, yes there were minor issues with water ingress but it was not a potential disaster waiting to happen and it was sorted, something on the lines of not enough pumps and not a lack of pumps altogether. On Saturday 8th August I spent 6 hrs in the company of Martial, we visited the site and talked at length about the situation and he has convinced me that progress is being made at the correct pace for the work in hand and also in a manner that is conducive to the work being carried out, ie - what the relatives of the soldiers would expect and nothing less.....respect. So as far as I am concerned unless it is an official press release from the site or CWGC spokesperson, then its not worth getting hyped up about.

Colin Stalgis

Remembering: Cpl G. F. Stalgis

14th Machine Gun Co

5th Div

KIA 19th / 20th July 1916

Fromelles, France

[MelPack]

Ooo-er the fur continues to fly but this time it is mixed with a good dosage of sanctimonious indignation :

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...4-31477,00.html

Mel

[Paul Reed]

I have no connection to the Fromelles dig, having only visited it in its early stages this May (and that through the viewing station), but find it very difficult to form an opinion on this, given all the 'chaff'. I suspect I am not alone in that. However, I must say that I find the statement "Johan Vandevalle knows nothing about archaeology" somewhat odd, and lacking knowledge in itself.

[MelPack]

I find the statement "Johan Vandevalle knows nothing about archaeology" somewhat odd, and lacking knowledge in itself.

Paul

..... and the fact that he is described as a 'carpenter and an amateur enthusiast' suggests that the gloves are well and truly off.

I wonder how long it will be before the respective sides start to leak information about the other side's sexual peccadillos

Mel

[John_Hartley]

I wonder how long it will be before the respective sides start to leak information about the other side's sexual peccadillos

I think that might be more interesting.

BTW, is the Margaret Cox, mentioned in the report, the same woman who regularly appears on Time Team doing the forensic bone analysis bit? Isn't she an "acknowledged expert" in this sort of thing - working in the Balkans and so on?

[MelPack]

BTW, is the Margaret Cox, mentioned in the report, the same woman who regularly appears on Time Team doing the forensic bone analysis bit? Isn't she an "acknowledged expert" in this sort of thing - working in the Balkans and so on?

John

Yes that is the one but so what?

There has been far too much prissy knickered posturing by the so called experts.

Why not issue a simple statement to the effect: ' It is regrettable but Mr Vandevalle's observations are mistaken. The only deep digging that has occurred on site has been the removal of backfill from the lateral trenches of the exploratory excavation undertaken in 2008'.

Instead, we are treated to the hand-wringing, buttock clenching angst of 'We are so dedicated, we are so hardworking et al and ad nauseum.

These experts are in receipt of remuneration from Australian and British public funds. Do we really need to hear their idle threats about defamation actions and how 'hurt' they are; let alone being asked to throw fish as unto a clapping seal for the marvellous work that they are doing?

Tim had it absolutely right earlier in this thread:

Because OA, MoD, CWGC, DoD etc are treating the dig like some huge state secret, they are enabling an atmosphere of rumour and criticism. A little more transparency by them from the outset might have avoided much of this problem.

Enough said.

Mel

Edit: This is by way of a public apology to John. I did not intend to traduce him for asking a perfectly legitimate question. My ire was directed at the unseemly conduct of the so called experts in this affair.

[sarge2871]

Re: The Cloak & Dagger.......just to throw my two pence on the table, my thoughts on all this...and I do have a vested interest. Tony Pollard and GUARD should have been given the job from the outset, and no that is not a slaight at Oxford, I was impressed with GUARDs work and reporting, but it always comes back to the same thing...money.

.... the secrecy ?.....the press in general have been kept away and not only that many innocent, day trippers if you like, have been kept away and there has been a NO camera policy by some of the private security people in operation. That leads me to think that someone....perhaps a film crew of some description is looking to make a lot of money out of this.....I may or may not be barking up the wrong tree......we shall see, time will tell ? And if it is the case, well then that is just sick !

[John_Hartley]

Yes that is the one but so what?

So what?

So now I have an answer to my question. Thank you.

As for the rest, I've stopped giving a sh it one way or the other. Contract's been awarded; folk are miffed they didnt get it; work's underway; it'll get concluded; blokes will be identifed as best under the circs; folk will bitch that they could have identified more blokes; newspapers will fill more column inches; and not a single bit of difference will be made.

Nuff said.

J

(EDIT: Mel's apology, both public & private, was not necessary and the strong feelings are fully understood. No offence taken by me.)

Edited 21 August , 2009 by John Hartley

[MelPack]

Sarge

You have raised an issue that I have pondered on.

Does anyone know if there is a media production team on site?

Mel

[Chris_Baker]

Sarge2871, you make an important point. Books, DVDs, TV ... money will be made out of this, make no mistake. Whether this is behind the rather unedifying dialogue about the work that is actually being done is not clear to me, but the whole thing is jam-packed with vested interests. Political point-scoring, individual reputations and careers, the works. I find it all rather sad, but at least the men will end up in a decent cemetery, identified if possible, and that is a consolation.

[dycer]

I bought a Paperback this morning,The Soldier's War by Richard Van Emden.

In it, is a photograph,with the sideline "Two years after, a poignant image of British and Australian dead killed at Fromelles in July 1916."

I presume these men received a decent burial,although looking at the photograph,the dignity of an individual grave is hard to conceive.

If the current exhumation result in an authoritative Book,which assists,experts in that field,conduct similar recoveries,in the future,not necessarily WW1 related, I applaud its publication,although I doubt I will ever read it.

I am caught two ways,as a person,when reading the posts on this subject.I have an Uncle who may still be lying out on the battlefields,not Fromelles,but should a mass grave be found,in the area that he lost his life, I would be happy to offer,a living DNA sample to either identify his remains or eliminate him from the individual recovery.I would not,however,read,believe,or question Press stories about the exhumation process,but I would become angry if after this process had been finished,TV or other media outlets were used by professionals,who were there,either for their personal gain or to entertain the ghoulish.

George

[Bert Heyvaert]

Being an archaeologist myself and having to deal with drainage/ground water problems all the time, I am somewhat puzzled by all this.

A reconnaissance dig was conducted before the actual project started, even before the project had been appointed to Oxford archaeology. The times that I have undertaken a similar reconnaisance task, a full report on geology, drainage and ground water levels have always been an important part of this, so adequate measures could be taken to prevent water problems as much as possible during the actual full excavation that is to follow. Drainage systems are usually put in place a few weeks/month before the actual excavation starts, as it takes a while to actually lower the ground water level. A drainage system does not prevent a site from flooding in case of heavy rainfall, but is allows the rainwater to be absorbed very quickly. Basically the flooded part is left for a little while untill the pumps have done their work.

So the question pops up whether or not the reconnaissance team had advised drainage.

[dycer]

Bert,

Any WW1 British or Commonwealth War Diary you read,reveals that they,were totally pigged off with your weather,although they enjoyed your Summers.

George

[Bert Heyvaert]

Bert,

Any WW1 British or Commonwealth War Diary you read,reveals that they,were totally pigged off with your weather,although they enjoyed your Summers.

George

I share their feelings

[Fedelmar]

From memory ... the GUARD report did deal with the drainage and the soil. I have it, and would need to read it but it would be senseless now.

You can bet on the shine of the seat of their pants come the service 2010 there will be so many politicians and bigwigs grandstanding that the purpose will be entirely overshadowed. It will be surprising to me if the same grandstanders pay the way of one relative of each of the identified soldiers to attend the service.

Bright Blessings

Sandra