Welsh Guards Loos 27/9/15

[welshdoc]

Hi do any of the Pals have the regimental diary for the 1st Welsh Guards on 27/9/15. Im looking up 598 AE Clarke WG from Penarth my home town. Hes commemorated on the Loos memorial panel 10. Im off to see if hes on any of the local memorials. gareth

[Steven Broomfield]

Hi, Gareth. I don't have the diary, but I do have the regimental history: I'll have a look this evening if no-one gets in first.

[welshdoc]

Thanks Steven, I know it was the first pasting the Guards had in WW1 with 40+ KIA.

[larney]

This is the relevant piece from the history;

On the 27th the most advanced points of our attack had been driven in. The men of the 15th Division who had pushed out over Hill 70 and Fosse 14 had found themselves in a solitary kind of position, with few friends and many enemies. They had already tried to make themselves more comfortable before the 21st Division went up to help them, but Fosse 14, Hill 70, and the Chalk Pit all went back to the enemy, and the net gain on the right of the British line was Loos.

At 12.30 p.m. Lieut.-Col. Murray-Threipland received orders that the 3rd Brigade would march to Loos in the following order: 4th Battalion Grenadier Guards, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, and 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards. The 2nd Brigade was to attack the Chalk Pit and Fosse 14, and when the brigadier was satisfied that they had occupied or practically taken these places the 3rd Brigade would commence an attack on Hill 70. The attack would be made by the 4th Battalion Grenadier Guards with the Welsh Guards in support in Loos. If the attacking battalion suffered heavily the Welsh Guards would occupy the line taken by the Grenadiers.

The ruined village of Vermelles now presented a scene of activity that had never been equalled in its most prosperous days. From the very ruins came the short, sharp thunder-clap of guns. Troops were everywhere. The two days and two nights of battle had left obvious marks. A stream of wounded and weary, drawn- faced stragglers limped along the road mixed up with the more energetic traffic. A move had been ordered and the bivouac camps were busy.

At 2.30 p.m. the Welsh Guards, headed by the Commanding Officer, marched off to Loos.

Lieut.-Col. Murray-Threipland always walked in a determined, thrusting manner, with his head a little bit forward. Standing over six feet, with broad shoulders and hard, lean figure, he had a commanding presence. Walking by the Commanding Officer's side was Perrins, with high cheek-bones and eyes which seemed to slant upwards. He generally carried a large leather case full of papers slung round him, an electric lamp, a revolver, and was said to have once added to his equipment a Malay knife of fearful shape and size. He had a springy sort of walk and generally looked on the ground.

The order of march was the Prince of Wales's Company, with Osmond Williams, Mawby, Geoffrey Crawshay, Smith and Philip Howard; No. 2 with Dick Bulkeley, Rupert Lewis, Keith Menzies and Copland Griffiths; No. 3 with George Philipps, Harry Rice, Randolph and Sutton; No. 4 with Palmer, Claud Insole, Basil Hambrough and Evan Thomas. Humphrey Dene was sent as liaison officer between the battalion and the brigade, and Jim jack Evans was with headquarters as scouting officer and general utility. The rest were left behind with the transport, or near it.

There is a road between Vermelles and Loos, and after following this a little way the whole brigade turned off to the left and went across country. On leaving the road they proceeded in artillery formation.

Before coming to Loos there is a rise in the ground followed by a long gentle slope down to the village. When the 4th Battalion Grenadiers topped this rise they were immediately seen by the enemy, who promptly opened heavy artillery fire on them which grew in volume as succeeding platoons, in close column of fours, slowly rose at intervals over the sky-line and proceeded steadily towards Loos.

This approach on Loos has become historical. It was witnessed by many. What troops there were over a large stretch of the front line to the left could see right up this slope, and it has been described by many as a most thrilling sight. Shrapnel burst, making puffs of smoke overhead, high explosive shells sent up sudden fountains of mud and black smoke which completely obliterated, according to the view-point, now one, now another of those small squares of advancing men, who, however, slowly and steadily continued to advance, the brigade covering a large area of ground in this formation.

The battalion was to be in support in or about the village, and finding, just outside it, a German trench, the Commanding Officer ordered the battalion into it while he went forward to find the brigadier, who had sent word that he was in Loos.

An unarmed Highlander was wandering about these trenches. He refused to get in or take any sort of cover, but, constituting himself into a sort of guide and showman, first pointed out the best bits of trench to get into and then directed attention to places of interest — Hill 70, the Chalk Pit, Fosse 14, Hugo Wood. As he walked up and down amidst a hail of shells the men repeatedly urged him to get into the trench, but he would not, and spoke with the utmost contempt of German shells. Afterwards he went with the battalion into Loos, where he disappeared.

Meanwhile the Commanding Officer of the 4th Battalion Grenadiers had been gassed and the position of his battalion was for the moment unknown. The brigadier directed that the Welsh Guards should be brought into the main street of the town and wait there for orders.

And so the men of the battalion presently saw the thrusting figure of their Commanding Officer, with Perrins tripping beside him, come rapidly towards them. They were taken out of the trench and into Loos, where the gas shelling was so bad they had to put on their horrible slimy bags called H.P. Helmets.

Humphrey Dene, describing the scene, says: " There was the battalion standing about anyhow, and making noises like frogs and penny tin trumpets as they spat and blew down the tubes of their helmets, and shells crashed into houses, and Bill (the Commanding Officer) dashed about trying to see Brigade Headquarters through the dirty glass of his helmet, which was absolutely useless because he refused to tuck the ends into his coat.'

But he did find the brigade and was shown a map and a point on it where some of the 4th Battalion Grenadiers were supposed to be, and was ordered to take his battalion to them and commence an attack on Hill 70.

He then told the company commanders to take their companies through the village and get shelter where they could while he went to find the Grenadiers,

He discovered Miles Ponsonby in a low trench on the south-east of the village. Ponsonby said he had not more than 200 men with him.

The Commanding Officer then made the following arrangements: The Prince of Wales's Company would advance on the right on a two platoon frontage, and Ponsonby with his Grenadiers on a similar frontage on the left. No. 2 Company Welsh Guards would support the Prince of Wales's and No. 3 the Grenadiers. He gave a clump of trees on the sky-line as a mark to advance on.

Returning once more to Loos, he collected his company commanders and issued his orders. As the Prince of Wales's advanced No. 2 moved into place and then No. 3; No. 4 and Battalion H.Q. remained in the village.

The time was noted as 6.2 p.m. about a quarter of an hour before dark.

Headquarters were installed in a convenient ruin. At 6.50 p.m. the first report was sent to the brigade: “A wounded corporal reports that the 4th Grenadier and 1st Welsh Guards have captured two lines of trenches. I have launched my last company. 2nd Scots Guards should come up handy. Can you give me any information about my right flank, as I am anxious about it ? "

Palmer, with No. 4 Company, had been sent up to the trench where the Grenadiers had been, at the commencement of the attack, with instructions to try and get in touch with companies in front and find out if they required any reinforcements, but not to go himself, and to send back any information he could get.

Rhys Williams, with two guns, was sent to some trenches on the right held by the 10th Hussars.

The waiting at Battalion H.Q. when an attack has been launched is the most appalling experience. A long time, or what seems a long time, elapses before any news of the success of companies, or their position, comes in. There is practically nothing to do but think, although an attempt is made to do some more active work. A map, a typewritten sheet of paper is clung to as a sort of lifebuoy, though probably neither conveys anything to one's mind. A message, even the classical question of how many pots of raspberry jam have been issued, becomes important; in fact, any excuse for activity of mind or body is welcome.

The first message of importance came from Keith Menzies, who reported in person that No. 2 Company was held up and wanted reinforcements. He spoke of a bank on the top of the hill, and said that the company were some twenty or thirty yards beyond it and could get no farther.

Soon after Menzies came Rupert Lewis with a similar story. Lewis's glasses had got fogged and dirty, it was pitch dark, and he had fallen into a trench and bruised his head. He had been promptly jumped on by some cavalrymen who occupied the trench and thought he was a German. However, when he had recovered his wind and senses, he explained who he was and was allowed to go.

From what he said the Commanding Officer concluded that it was not a case of reinforcements but that the front line had gone far enough. The brigadier had been most emphatic that the line to be occupied was to be on the reverse slope only.

Keith Menzies was sent back to tell Dick Bulkeley to dig in where he was. Palmer was ordered to move farther up the hill in closer support, and his place was taken by one company of Scots Guards, which had just arrived. A message was also sent to the brigadier to the effect that the required point had been reached, that the Grenadier and Welsh Guards had been considerably knocked about, and that it was advisable to bring up all the Scots Guards to dig in near the new line and allow the attacking troops to reorganise.

The right flank was causing the Commanding Officer some anxiety, as it was obvious that a large gap must exist between the right of his new line and the nearest troops in the old line, the 10th Hussars. So he sent for Palmer and told him to take his company up and make good the gap. Palmer asked if he might go and reconnoitre the situation, but was told to send some one else and only in the event of it being absolutely necessary should he go himself.

At the same time a message arrived from Rhys Williams, who was also anxious about this flank, asking for news of the advance and for two more guns. Gough was sent up with both.

It must be remembered that the time of the attack was just as night was falling, and that the difficulty of getting up the hill was not occasioned by shelling or rifle-fire but by the darkness. To keep direction and keep in touch was extremely hard, as it always is in any night operation.

At the commencement of the advance it was still possible to see the clump of trees on top of the hill, but they gradually disappeared. That company commanders were alive to the importance of knowing each other's positions is shown by Osmond Williams halting in dead ground, short of the crest, until Dick Bulkeley ran into him. No. 3 Company, however, lost touch with the Grenadiers, who apparently swerved away to the left. Having lost touch there was no time to go searching about in the darkness. Osmond Williams was satisfied he had No. 2 behind him, but in any case he would have attacked with one platoon.

To describe the exact movements of each company is impossible — no man could tell of the movements of the other platoons of his own company.

Osmond Williams advanced and the three companies were swallowed up in the night.

But they could tell they had reached the top of the hill. A star-light went up — one — one, two, three — six of them — a dozen — twenty — a little ripple of fire — night had given way to a blazing patch of light in which one could see holes, unevenness in the ground which showed in hard black clumps and lines, and clear-cut figures with rifle and glinting bayonet advancing into the light, running forward out of the farther darkness. And then the little ripple of rifle-fire increased in an excited way, and with the rattling crash of machine guns pandemonium reigned.

What happened ? In the daylight it is possible to reconstruct from the next moment, the moment one was able to look round and see what men were then doing, but at night — —

The dead knew nothing. The wounded knew they were hit. The unwounded would probably first realise that they were lying on the ground— and the roar of the enemy fire never ceased. Copland Griffiths describes a tornado, a monsoon, something fearful in the nature of a storm going on just over his head as he lay flat on the ground, and a bullet ripped him straight down the back so that he tried to lie flatter yet.

Such a situation cannot last for ever, and the firing quieted down. Men scraped holes where they were, or rolled into shell-holes, and in spite of a constant fusillade, with an occasional burst of intense fire, officers began to crawl about endeavouring to clear up the situation and collect their men. Some sort of line was formed and companies got into touch with each other.

The Prince of Wales's Company on the right was very scattered. All their officers had been hit — Osmond Williams was mortally wounded and died the next day, Mawby and Smith were killed, Crawshay and Howard wounded. The men were hanging on under any sort of cover. No. 2 had fared better in officer casualties, although they were right up against the enemy. Copland Griffiths was the only one hit, and he was determined to hang on. No. 3 was on the left and slightly behind the other companies, but Philipps was hit, Randolph and Sutton killed. Dick Bulkeley established himself behind the bank spoken of by Menzies and sent down messages on the situation. Palmer came up the hill and began to talk to Bulkeley about the gap on the right of the line, but was immediately killed.

Dick Bulkeley went down himself to consult with the Commanding Officer. He could only summarise the position by saying it was damnable, but he was told he must try and dig in where he was, and half the battalion tools were sent up for that purpose (the other half had been blown up). When lie had gone Rhys Williams appeared, hit, but not too bad, and gave what information he had. The doctor (Picton Phillips) dressed his wound and he went back to his guns, but was ordered to hospital later on.

A message was sent to Claud Insole telling him Palmer was killed, but he was to take No. 4 Company and carry out the order given to Palmer.

The Commanding Officer was now quite clear that the battalion was where it was meant to go, but had still cause to be extremely anxious, as they were by no means firmly established and were evidently somewhat disorganised — more especially the Prince of Wales's Company, of which there was the vaguest news. A company of the 4th Pioneer Battalion Coldstream Guards had reported to help in the consolidating, but he held them back until the other companies of the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards arrived. Eventually Lieut. -Col. Cator came and said that he had not more than two companies, but that the remainder of the 4th Battalion Grenadier Guards had turned up and were being sent with his battalion to take over from the Welsh Guards.

The two Commanding Officers, accompanied by Rupert Lewis, who had been retained at headquarters, then went to look over the ground, and Dene was sent to find a place for the battalion when they were relieved.

On inspection it was considered impossible to dig in on the line occupied, then a mere matter of shell-holes and scrapes — but a little further back there was an old German trench, mostly fallen in, and the relieving troops with the Pioneer Company and some engineers for wiring were sent up to make this trench secure. When Colonel Cator was satisfied with the work done the Welsh Guards were withdrawn, though a few remained up there until October 1st.

Apologies for any typos!

Steve.

[Steven Broomfield]

Nice one, Steve. I would have stuck with "Clarke doesn't get a mention"

[PhilB]

598 Clarke AE is listed as from Barry Dock KIA.

[larney]

Nice one, Steve. I would have stuck with "Clarke doesn't get a mention"

I should have added that sorry- Clarke isn't mentioned in this slightly long extract!

[welshdoc]

Thanks all in particular Steve.

Phil where is he listed as being from Barry Dock ? Sodiers died has him as Born Penarth enlisted Cardiff. Ive not managed to check the memorials yet. Gareth

[PhilB]

In the back of the Dudley Ward Welsh Guards history.

[welshdoc]

Thanks Phil, some research for me to do. Gareth

[larney]

This is his name on Loos Memorial Gareth,

Steve.

[ATNOMIS]

Gareth

Info you more than lightly have.

Cheers

Atnomis

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

about Albert Edward Clarke

Name: Albert Edward Clarke

Birth Place: Penarth, Glam.

Residence: Cardiff, Glam.

Death Date: 27 Sep 1915

Rank: Private

Regiment: Welsh Guards

Battalion: 1st Battalion.

Number: 598

Type of Casualty: Killed in action

[ATNOMIS]

Is this your man on the 1901?

1901 Wales Census

about Albert E Clarke

Name: Albert E Clarke

Age in 1901: 12

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889

Relation: Son

Father's Name: Alf R

Mother's Name: Jane

Gender: Male

Where born: Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: Barry

Ecclesiastical parish: Barry and Cadoxton

County/Island: Glamorgan

Country: Wales

Street Address: Looks like Kingsland Cres

Registration district: Cardiff

Sub-registration district: St Nicholas

ED, institution, or vessel: 11

Neighbors: View others on page

Household schedule number: 185

Household Members: Name Age

Alf R Clarke 53

Jane Clarke 44

Lizzie Clarke 23

Elfred C Clarke 17

Edith M Clarke 16

Sarah J Clarke 14

Minnie L Clarke 11

Albert E Clarke 12

Jennie Clarke 9

Harold L Clarke 7

Ethel B Clarke 3

Alexandra Clarke 5

Ambrose B Clarke 15

Thomas Walters 68

[welshdoc]

Many thanks to Steve for the photo and to Atnomis for all the census and MIC data. Which I didnt have . Gareth

[welshdoc]

By the way it is Kingsland Cres, it lies between the main street and the dock area. Its terrace housing it must have been pretty full in 1901 with 3 adults and 11 children. Off to Barry on the weekend to check the main BArry memorial.

[ATNOMIS]

You are more than welcome.

Just keep us updated.

Simon/Atnomis

[PhilB]

If his house is still there, will you be tempted to knock on the door just in case the family is still there? Even if they`re not, the houses of WW1 men are still atmospheric. You`re seeing the things they saw.

[welshdoc]

Ill try to find it next week its certainly on goggle earth

[Nick Farr]

His SR is held at the WG RHQ, Wellington Barracks.

His fate after the battle is recorded as ‘Regarded for official purposes as having died on or since 27/9/15 to 8/12/15’.

[richards13]

I know this thread is quite old - but this may be of interest.............

[welshdoc]

Thanksto D for the pic and sending a JPEG. most appreciated

[BeckyM]

Fantastic thread, thanks for posting all this information. My great grandfather Herbert David Dunford was in the Welsh Guards 1st Bttn, and was also killed in action on 27th Sept 1915.

Here's the memorial

[BeckyM]

Hi all,

Wonder if someone could explain this bit of confusion for me?

My G-Grandfather (Herbert Dunford, above) was in the Welsh Guards, 1st battalion. His record shows that he was formerly of the Grenadier Guards. Having read the battle diary above, it appears that the Grenadiers were also involved at the battle of Loos. Would my grandfather have transfered to the Welsh Guard from the Grenadiers, and what would have been the point of that?

Any help appreciated.

[Hywyn]

When the Welsh Guards were formed in February 1915 there was a call for volunteers from the other Guards. Looks like Herbert heeded that call.

Hywyn

[Stoppage Drill]

He's not here by any chance, is he?