Iraq

[NIGEL]

Shame they cant exhume the graves as for what is left must be no more than a parcel of bits now and wouldnt cost much infact instead of spending money on headstones it could be given to locals as a condition of aid or something so it work out cheaper---i understand why in the comunist countries as like they say an iron curtain came down but these graves in Iraq etc are being destroyed this wasnt the case in the comunist era at the moment headstones how long before some determined person gets his hands on a JCB, at least now we could recover the remains at minimum cost----its got to be cheaper than the present way and i think if there was a large site in the uk it would keep the whole thing alive for our kids to learn the history and also make money for the cwgc instead of costing money

I do think this time it is different because if now or in the future somebody gets in control of an area who wants to destroy anything which has anything to do with the west or another time, era, religeon, then they will totally destroy it as what happened in Afganistan a couple of years back. I dont think this was the case in the comunists times

I am not talking from a relatives point of veiw just a practicable and self financing point

But you never said what happened to the graves in China

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

Without going into the discussion in detail, the idea is impractical for legal, religious, financial and other reasons. If finance were the only consideration, the graves would be deemed unmaintainable and a memorial built - far cheaper.

You also have to be aware that CWGC is not permitted to raise funds except in a very limited way (eg by maintaining cemeteries on a contract basis for other authorities) under the terms of the Royal Charter.

I think the graves in Iraq are a very long way from being deemed unmaintainable as yet but it will depend on what happens over the next twenty years or so. CWGC did not give up on war graves when Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo caused grief and I do not foresee them doing so easily in this case.

The graves in China (both WW1 around Tsingtao and WW2 airmen) were abandoned as being unmaintainable due to the Communist regime of the 1950-1980 period. The names were inscribed on memorials at Hong Kong (ironically now part of China!).

If the graves still exist in a recognisable form - which I doubt - they conceivably could be reclaimed by CWGC one day. However, those in Russia, in the main, had not been destroyed in the intervening period and so were relatively easy to restore.

[NIGEL]

Thanks Terry i never thought about the legal and religeous stuff that would explain why nobody has ever done something so obvious before

Sorry to be a pest but just 2 more questions------

knowing what we know now if there were large casulties in a conflict would we bring the dead home or still put them in recognised Graves in the country they were killed

In China what happened that you doubt those graves still exist or arent, you allowed to say.

[Terry Denham]

It was never the British system to repatriate fallen soldiers. It never entered the military mind that this was a worthwhile exercise although it was not actually forbidden until mid-1915.

Previously, if the n-o-k could aford the cost, they could retrieve their loved one.

With the large scale of WW1 the rule of no repatriation was introduced and that stayed in place generally until 1982. British troops who fell in Korea, Cyprus, Aden etc are still there. With the Falklands War, the rule was altered and n-o-k could elect to return their men at state expense or not.

Today, with small numbers involved, returning bodies seems to be the norm. It is probably inconceivable that we would get into a conflict with the mass casualties of WW1/WW2. If we do, I suspect that we will have more to worry about than returning deceased soldiers!

I do not know the status of the cemeteries in China but I cannot imagine that they escaped unscathed in the chaos of the Communist take-over or in the even worse excesses of the 1960s Red Guard revolution! They may well still exist in an overgrown corner (I hope so) or they may have disappeared under a factory making bottle openers etc.

[Guest c175]

Wasn't there a cemetery that was found and cleaned up by the USMC. but shortly after the cleaning. It was destroyed again because they raised the British flag?

[Nick Cooper]

Wasn't there a cemetery that was found and cleaned up by the USMC. but shortly after the cleaning. It was destroyed again because they raised the British flag?

There is a piece about the USMC cleaning up Kut cemetery on Tom Morgan's Hellfire Corner pages, and sadly it seems that the work was in vain:

Restored British war graves sacked

[Drummy]

I take a view that the more distant the wars become in history the more problems there will be re funding / preservation etc. I understand why small cemeteries were made but I feel that radical steps need to be considered over the next few decades to consolidate small cemeteries and isolated graves abroad (and those in the UK that are not family/nok located graves) into large concentration sites. Yep it may take graves and cemeteries out of historical settings but at the end of the day preservation is the main thing.

I find it difficult to stomach that the government finds it easier to write off graves than to move them into large sites. I personally cannot see that CWGC sites in Iraq will be maintainable, if they are repaired some one or group will only seek to destroy the work done. There is the dilemma for the CWGC.

In any case I think that the graves throughout Iraq should be brought into one central site together with the Basra memorial, short term expense would be replaced by reduced costs of maintaining one site and more protection. However as Terry says there is the financial, legal and ethical reasons to consider, which would no doubt stop this. Therefore graves in Iraq may one day be written off and those affected then commemorated on a memorial, as in India. That would be tragic, for a soldier to have a known grave to then be listed on a memorial due to policy!.

[Guest c175]

I know we are talking about Iraq. But wasn't there also graves defaced in France not long ago. I thought I read where WW1 British graves where marked.

[Terry Denham]

C175

Yes, war graves are sometimes defaced in some countries but the action is by a mindless minority and has usually little to do with politics on a grand scale as with Iraq, China etc.

This type of 'vandalism' as opposed to 'political statement' is most common in the UK - something which actually makes me more angry than destruction for political reasons elsewhere!