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Chris_Baker

21st Lancers at Shabkadar

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Chris_Baker

Can anyone tell me more about the charge made by 21st Lancers at Shabkadar in May 1915, when Trooper Hull won his VC? In fact, any further details of the 21st Lancers in India during the Great War would be helpful. Their published history seems paper thin, and there is no war diary I can locate.

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Chris_Baker

One more try.

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Philip Wilson

If you have not already seen it then there is a useful article in the August 2009 edition of Medal News on the 21st Lancers by Robert N.Smith.

The article describes the action at Shabkadar (Bir es Gundai) on the North West Frontier 5 September 1915 and includes the Charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman some 17 years before on 2 September 1898.

The sources are quoted as The Vedette Vol.5, 1915 and Battles of the 20th Century - Vol 5.

There is a useful short chapter on Charles Hull, No 1053 Private (Shoeing Smith) 21st Lancers re the award of his VC for the action at Shabkadar in 'The Sideshows - the VCs of the First World War' by Gerald Gliddon. See London Gazette 3rd March 1916.

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Chris_Baker

Thank you, Philip.

I'd also be grateful for any information concerning the regiment while in India after September 1915.

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Philip Wilson

The 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers get a five line entry only in Brigadier James' British Cavalry and Yeomanry 1914-18:

Battle Honours N.W.Frontier of India, 1915, 1916.

4.8.14 Rawal Pindi. Remained in India throughout the War.

A Service Squadron formed part of the X1V Corps Cavalry Regiment in France from June 1916 to August 1917.

The History of the 17th/21st Lancers by R.L.V. ffrench Blake confirms the Service Squadron which fought in France on the Somme and elsewhere was formed mainly from reservists at Tidworth in June 1916 and was disbanded August 1917. The reason being given that infantry losses had become so great they required every possible man to serve in that arm.

Chapter 10 of 'The Last Charge - the 21st Lancers and the Battle of Omdurman' by Terry Brighton ISBN 1 86126 189 6 covers the action at Shabkadar in 1915 in some detail. It also provides an overview of the 21st Lancers involvement in France and Flanders. There are several exceptionally good photos of the 21st Lancers in India and France. The book is well worth reading.

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HERITAGE PLUS

Chris

A previous post:

Dave

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Chris_Baker

Well done, Dave.

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shiplets

I have a photo of my Grandad James Shipp who is in a group of soldiers entitled 'Wounded in Shabkadar'. Where could i find any information about him when he was out there or were only Officers mentioned in action reports etc?

The 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers get a five line entry only in Brigadier James' British Cavalry and Yeomanry 1914-18:

Battle Honours N.W.Frontier of India, 1915, 1916.

4.8.14 Rawal Pindi. Remained in India throughout the War.

A Service Squadron formed part of the X1V Corps Cavalry Regiment in France from June 1916 to August 1917.

The History of the 17th/21st Lancers by R.L.V. ffrench Blake confirms the Service Squadron which fought in France on the Somme and elsewhere was formed mainly from reservists at Tidworth in June 1916 and was disbanded August 1917. The reason being given that infantry losses had become so great they required every possible man to serve in that arm.

Chapter 10 of 'The Last Charge - the 21st Lancers and the Battle of Omdurman' by Terry Brighton ISBN 1 86126 189 6 covers the action at Shabkadar in 1915 in some detail. It also provides an overview of the 21st Lancers involvement in France and Flanders. There are several exceptionally good photos of the 21st Lancers in India and France. The book is well worth reading.

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Old Owl

Hi Shiplets,

Your Grandad, 1146 Pte J.F.Shipp was indeed wounded at Shabkadar on 5/9/15. I cannot say for certain, but it would appear that he was most likely to have been a member of "C" Squadron which was led by Captain Anderson, who was killed in the charge. Unfortunately I can find no mention of him apart from in the casualty lists, generally it is only officers and senior Nco's who get a mention.

I would love to see the photo to which you refer--any chance of posting it on the forum?

Robert

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Story

Seen this?

The Life and Death of Lieutenant Neville Rudd Thompson

of the 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers

By Ross Dix-Peek

[sources: The 'South Africa" Magazine, dated 11 March 1916, pp 368-369;'The Defence of India', by F. A. McKenzie, 'The Great War', edited by H.W. Wilson, volume 7, chapter 128; Diocesan College War Register, Rondebosch, Cape Town,1914-1919); The Queen's Royal Lancers Web Page; The Commonwealth War Grave's Commission Website]

http://peek-01.livej....com/23643.html

Odd that the officer rescued by Hull is never mentioned by name, or did I miss it?

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Story
On 5 September 1915 at Hafiz Kor*, N.W. Frontier, India, Private Hull rescued an officer from certain death at the hands of the tribesmen. The latter's horse had been shot and Private Hull took the officer up behind on his own horse, under heavy fire at close range, and galloped away to safety
.http://www.enotes.com/topic/Charles_Hull

* Might try searching under that location, as well.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JxEoQKR4tc4C&pg=PA32&dq=21st-lancers+1915+charge&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W3EcT9mKK6bV0QHex5jcCw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=21st-lancers%201915%20charge&f=false

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Old Owl

Odd that the officer rescued by Hull is never mentioned by name, or did I miss it?

Hi Story,

If you have not already located this? the officer rescued by S.S.Charles Hull was Captain and Adjutant G.E.D.Learoyd of the 21st Lancers.

Hope this helps.

Robert

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Story

Hi Story,

If you have not already located this? the officer rescued by S.S.Charles Hull was Captain and Adjutant G.E.D.Learoyd of the 21st Lancers.

Hope this helps.

Robert

Dunno how I missed that, which led to this

http://www.harrogatepeopleandplaces.info/ww1/soldiers/h/hull-charles.htm

and this

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Brits_in_Caucasus/India_01.htm

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bushfighter

Stores

London Gazette Issue No 29652 (4th July 1916) covers the Hafiz Khor action very briefly in paragraph 17.

Mentions in Despatches that include the action are listed on pages 6701 to 6703.

Harry

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bushfighter

If any Member is interested in the political background to military operations in India during the Great War then I suggest a glance through Turmoil and Tragedy in India 1914 and After by Lieutenant General Sir George MacMunn KCB KCSI DSO.

The book is imperialistic in outlook and tone, but offers insight into how the British administration in India viewed both internal and external threats.

Harry

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shiplets

Hi Shiplets,

Your Grandad, 1146 Pte J.F.Shipp was indeed wounded at Shabkadar on 5/9/15. I cannot say for certain, but it would appear that he was most likely to have been a member of "C" Squadron which was led by Captain Anderson, who was killed in the charge. Unfortunately I can find no mention of him apart from in the casualty lists, generally it is only officers and senior Nco's who get a mention.

I would love to see the photo to which you refer--any chance of posting it on the forum?

Robert

Hi Shiplets,

Your Grandad, 1146 Pte J.F.Shipp was indeed wounded at Shabkadar on 5/9/15. I cannot say for certain, but it would appear that he was most likely to have been a member of "C" Squadron which was led by Captain Anderson, who was killed in the charge. Unfortunately I can find no mention of him apart from in the casualty lists, generally it is only officers and senior Nco's who get a mention.

I would love to see the photo to which you refer--any chance of posting it on the forum?

Robert

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shiplets

Wounded in Shabkadar.

I have scanned a copy of the photo of my Grandad and others who were wounded at Shabkadar, its not brilliant because of its age it has faded. I tried to upload in PDF format but kept getting told it was too big. I've tried compressing it to a zip file but no good. How can i get round this? Otherwise contact me and i can e-mail it as a PDF.

.

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shiplets

Picture entitled 'wounded in Shabkadar post-39322-0-84607000-1382123684_thumb.j

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shiplets

Picture entitled 'wounded in Shabkadar post-39322-0-84607000-1382123684_thumb.jpost-39322-0-84607000-1382123684_thumb.jpost-39322-0-84607000-1382123684_thumb.j

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Dominic

Hello Chris, are you still looking for information about the 21st lancers? I posted a photo on this site a while ago titled 'native lancers Tank 1917' Could these have been the 21st lancers?

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Chris_Baker

Thanks, Dominic, but I was after some info on Shabkadar for specific purposes and I don't have a particular interest in the regiment.

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Eileen Simmons Joyce

Hello, Researching my husbands grandfather who joined the 21st Lancers in 1916 and served in India. We are told that he died as a casualty there in 1918

His name was Patrick Joyce b. Sept 9, 1878 in Dublin, It. Can anyone tell me if this is true and what he died of? 

Many thanks

Eileen

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johntanner

PrivateJOYCE, P

Service Number L/13673

Died 01/11/1918

Aged 32

21st (Empress of India's) Lancers
 

Buried Meerut Cantonment Cemetery

 

 

Name: Patrick Joyce
Residence: N. Strand, Dublin
Death Date: 1 Nov 1918
Death Place: India
Enlistment Place: Curragh
Rank: Private
Regiment: Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line
Battalion: 21st Lancers (Empress of Indias)
Regimental Number: 13673
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Asiatic Theatres

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Chris_Baker

According to a dependents' pension record card, he died of influenza.

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