Looking for info on Henry George Mancey

[axe010170]

Morning all!

I'm new to the Forum and trying to find some info on the above named man who was my Dad's uncle.

He was killed (according to CWGC) on 31st Dec 1915 and his name is listed on the Doiran memorial in Greece.

I say according to the CWGC because according to the National Roll Of the Great War he was killed in Bulgaria in Oct 1915, although I believe this is not correct as the description of two of his brothers who also lost their lives has incorrect info too.

I have Henry George Mancey's medal card which tells me that he transferred to the Hampshire's from the East Surrey Reg.

I know from reading previous posts on the Forum that several people here have lots of info on the Hampshire's and was wondering if they could give me anymore information than I already have about where exactly he was killed etc.

Any help gladly received

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

Regards

Martin.

[ralphjd]

Martin. Your Dads uncle has two medal index cards on Ancestry one under the surname MANEE oddly enough. According to Soldiers Died cd he was born Hammersmith, enlisted Kingston-on-Thames, and resided Hammersmith, died Balkans 31-12-1915. Ralph.

[pounds14]

Hello Martin

The 10th Bn Hampshire Regiment following their time in the Dardenelles arrived at Mudros, according to Vol 2 of the Regimental History barely 300 strong. However on 4 Oct 1915, 520 reenforcements appeared mainly transfers from the Bedfordshire and the East Surreys.The Bn embarked Oct 5 now 19 Officers and 947 other ranks on the HT Clan Macgillivry and arrived on the 6th encamping 2 miles outside Salonika. The poor conditions and climate resulted in many men being sick. The Bn moved to defensive positions at Tatarli, north of Doiran, remaining there until 29 Nov in increasing cold weather.It again moved to a rocky ridge, Dorsale des Arbres north of Tatarli. This was a poor defensive position on the forward slope and the Bulgars kept up a steady harrassing fire from 2 Dec and maintained this until they attacked on the 7th Dec which forced the 10th Bn and other Bns to withdraw to a position named Crete Simonet which held. After four more days the Bn was relieved and moved to Doiran. Killed, wounded and missing totalled 183 with a further 86 men already evacuated due to sickness, the Bn now was reduced to 480.

After a month the Bn along with the 29th Bde, 10th Div, took over a position with its left flank on the shore of Lake Beshik with the Div stretching to Stavros to the right, on 29 Dec 1915. The History does not report any incident 31 Dec 1915.

However, according to the SDGW Henry DIED and not KIA or DOWs, and it is likely he was one of those who had succumbed to the appalling weather conditions and who had been evacuated and sadly died. I hope this helps you

Roger .

[axe010170]

I can't thank you enough for this detailed information, Superb.

Cheers

[axe010170]

Martin. Your Dads uncle has two medal index cards on Ancestry one under the surname MANEE oddly enough. According to Soldiers Died cd he was born Hammersmith, enlisted Kingston-on-Thames, and resided Hammersmith, died Balkans 31-12-1915. Ralph.

Thanks for the info Ralph, I don't suppose SDGW has an enlistment date does it? It looks from his medal index card that he enlisted in the East Surrey Reg before being transferred to the Hampshires which tallys with what Roger has said about the 10Bn Hampshires being reinforced by Soldiers from the East Surrey Reg. The National Roll of the Great War has an entry (below) but it looks to be full of inaccuracys to me.

[pounds14]

Glad to help.

One other item to help you. The Index of War Deaths 1914-1921 Army (OR) shows the following:

Mancey Henry Pte 20054 Hants 1915 Volume I 57 page 204. I presume you could apply for this death certificate which will show of what illness your relative died from.

Roger

[axe010170]

Hello Martin

The 10th Bn Hampshire Regiment following their time in the Dardenelles arrived at Mudros, according to Vol 2 of the Regimental History barely 300 strong. However on 4 Oct 1915, 520 reenforcements appeared mainly transfers from the Bedfordshire and the East Surreys.The Bn embarked Oct 5 now 19 Officers and 947 other ranks on the HT Clan Macgillivry and arrived on the 6th encamping 2 miles outside Salonika. The poor conditions and climate resulted in many men being sick. The Bn moved to defensive positions at Tatarli, north of Doiran, remaining there until 29 Nov in increasing cold weather.It again moved to a rocky ridge, Dorsale des Arbres north of Tatarli. This was a poor defensive position on the forward slope and the Bulgars kept up a steady harrassing fire from 2 Dec and maintained this until they attacked on the 7th Dec which forced the 10th Bn and other Bns to withdraw to a position named Crete Simonet which held. After four more days the Bn was relieved and moved to Doiran. Killed, wounded and missing totalled 183 with a further 86 men already evacuated due to sickness, the Bn now was reduced to 480.

After a month the Bn along with the 29th Bde, 10th Div, took over a position with its left flank on the shore of Lake Beshik with the Div stretching to Stavros to the right, on 29 Dec 1915. The History does not report any incident 31 Dec 1915.

However, according to the SDGW Henry DIED and not KIA or DOWs, and it is likely he was one of those who had succumbed to the appalling weather conditions and who had been evacuated and sadly died. I hope this helps you

Roger .

Roger,

I've posted Henry's 'National Roll Of Honour' in an above post.

This is giving me a few problems. There's loads of info in there that appears to be incorrect. I know that Henry was in the East Surreys from his medal Index. The roll of honour says '2nd' East Surrey.

I've looked at the movements of the 2nd East Surrey on the long long trail and it says they didn't arrive in Salonika until 1st Dec 1915.

How could they then have reinforced the Hampshires on 4th Oct? Do you think some were sent ahead?

He definitely transferred being given a new regtl number.

Not having any information on his stint with the East Surreys, (even an enlistment date) trying to track him is difficult. All I have is his East Surrey Regtl No.9354. Any ideas?

Thanks for any help

[axe010170]

Glad to help.

One other item to help you. The Index of War Deaths 1914-1921 Army (OR) shows the following:

Mancey Henry Pte 20054 Hants 1915 Volume I 57 page 204. I presume you could apply for this death certificate which will show of what illness your relative died from.

Roger

Roger,

Thanks for this info.

Do you have any idea where I can order this? I've had a look at the GRO site and can't see any mention of military death records

[pounds14]

Roger,

Thanks for this info.

Do you have any idea where I can order this? I've had a look at the GRO site and can't see any mention of military death records

I think the GRO would be the correct place to get certificate, quoting the reference I gave you. I have seen others from this source. Try their website for info.

Regarding when your relative joined the 10th Bn. I have quoted from the regimental history and during the Dardenelles campaign troopships with reenforcements from England came loaded with men from various regiments and used Mudros as the staging post. I note that 1/5th Bn Bedfords were also involved at Suvla Bay and Mudros so it was probable that as the 10th Hampshires on their way to Salonika and at the time under strength needed reenforcements a trooper may well have been diverted from Alexandria to Mudros with men from both these regiments (Bedfords and E Surreys) to fill the gaps in the ranks.

I have no knowledge on the contents of the National Roll but I understand that entries are not always correct.

Roger

[axe010170]

I think the GRO would be the correct place to get certificate, quoting the reference I gave you. I have seen others from this source. Try their website for info.

Regarding when your relative joined the 10th Bn. I have quoted from the regimental history and during the Dardenelles campaign troopships with reenforcements from England came loaded with men from various regiments and used Mudros as the staging post. I note that 1/5th Bn Bedfords were also involved at Suvla Bay and Mudros so it was probable that as the 10th Hampshires on their way to Salonika and at the time under strength needed reenforcements a trooper may well have been diverted from Alexandria to Mudros with men from both these regiments (Bedfords and E Surreys) to fill the gaps in the ranks.

I have no knowledge on the contents of the National Roll but I understand that entries are not always correct.

Roger

Thanks once again for your assistance, brilliant!

Martin.

[apwright]

Hi Martin,

Henry Mancey's name on the Doiran Memorial:

Adrian

[axe010170]

Blimey! Thanks Adrian.

There's something I never expected!

[axe010170]

O.K, this just got REALLY confusing!

I Just received Henry's death certificate from the GRO.

Not only is the date of death different to the CWGC and SDGW the countries are different!

It looks like he was captured and taken over the border into Bulgaria before dying.

'Died after operation' Medical operation, or does it mean military operation I wonder?

I notice this new death date tallys with the date the Bulgers attacked the Bn.

HELP!!!!!!

[Marc Thompson]

Martin,

This is most interesting and merits investigation with the CWGC.

The Hampshire Regimental Journal of February 1916 has a long list of missing from the action at Kosturino on 7th December 1915 including 20054 Pte Mancey H. Killed and missing for 10/Hants from this attack totalled 183, the majority of whom were listed as missing. Of the mssing 44 were known to have been wounded with a good many later reported as prisoners of war.

National Archives reference FO383 does include some information on, and lists of, Hampshire Regiment prisoners of war in Bulgarian hands but this does not include Henry Mancey. Not surprising given his apparent death on the same day as the battle. I would say that the information recorded on his death certificate, that he died after an operation whilst a prisoner of war, was initially supplied by the Bulgarians (possibly via a neutral embassy). I have several theories why 31/12/15 is recorded on the CWGC database as his date of death but won't go into these at this juncture.

Attached is an extract from The Times 26/08/1916 which confirms Henry as previously missing, now reported died as a prisoner of war.

I suggest that the next step will be write to CWGC with the information that you have gathered so that they can investigate this matter further from their perspective and potentially amend the date of death for him.

If you would like some assistance with this process then I would be pleased to help. Please feel free to send me a PM or e-mail.

Regards

Marc

[Marc Thompson]

Martin,

The other point to note is the discrepancy in Henry's age, 33 on the death certificate, 39 on CWGC. Do you know which is correct?

Attached below is the extract from the Hampshire Regimental Journal of February 1916 listing Henry as missing.

Marc

[axe010170]

Martin,

The other point to note is the discrepancy in Henry's age, 33 on the death certificate, 39 on CWGC. Do you know which is correct?

Attached below is the extract from the Hampshire Regimental Journal of February 1916 listing Henry as missing.

Marc

Morning Marc,

I was hoping you'd pick up on this post as you seem to be the resident Hampshire specialist!

Henry was actually 32 at the time so they're both wrong.

Do you think that the word 'operation' on his death cert just means the battle?

Thanks for those lists, it's amazing to me the amount of information you have acquired must have taken you ages!

I'll send you a PM in a mo with my e-mail address, I wonder if you could send me full size files of those lists? unless these are full size of course.

I'll have a look at CWGC website nad see if I can find an address/e-mail.

Thanks for your help

Cheers

Martin.

[Marc Thompson]

I was hoping you'd pick up on this post as you seem to be the resident Hampshire specialist!

Martin,

Roger (Pounds14) is also a Hampshire specialist and has a big edge over me as a civy as he actually served with the regiment (in its Royal guise of course). Thanks for the e-mail which I will respond to shortly.

Marc

[pounds14]

Martin,

Roger (Pounds14) is also a Hampshire specialist and has a big edge over me as a civy as he actually served with the regiment (in its Royal guise of course). Thanks for the e-mail which I will respond to shortly.

Marc

Martin

Who said it was easy! Marc as ever seems to have hit the proverbial nail right on its head. The fact I served with the Regiment doesn't make me any where near an expert so I think Marc's advice should be followed as I agree with his findings.

Roger

[axe010170]

Martin

Who said it was easy! Marc as ever seems to have hit the proverbial nail right on its head. The fact I served with the Regiment doesn't make me any where near an expert so I think Marc's advice should be followed as I agree with his findings.

Roger

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your comments as always.

I've written to CWGC and am awaiting a response, which they say could take up to six weeks.

I'm thinking now that it's probably not a coincidence that they listed Henry's death as the last day of the year. Maybe it's something they did to clear the data for that year when they weren't sure for some reason.

Do either yourself or Marc have the diary for the battle on the 7th? I'd love to read it if possible to get some more detail on what was happening on the day Henry went missing.

I imagine that Henry didn't die on the 7th (as per death cert) either but was captured on that day and died at some point after this, well either that or he didn't die in Bulgaria like the cert says. The date of the 7th & Bulgaria can't both be right can they?

[pounds14]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your comments as always.

I've written to CWGC and am awaiting a response, which they say could take up to six weeks.

I'm thinking now that it's probably not a coincidence that they listed Henry's death as the last day of the year. Maybe it's something they did to clear the data for that year when they weren't sure for some reason.

Do either yourself or Marc have the diary for the battle on the 7th? I'd love to read it if possible to get some more detail on what was happening on the day Henry went missing.

I imagine that Henry didn't die on the 7th (as per death cert) either but was captured on that day and died at some point after this, well either that or he didn't die in Bulgaria like the cert says. The date of the 7th & Bulgaria can't both be right can they?

[pounds14]

Martin

The 10th Bn war diary is in the regimental archives though whether it is complete I am not 100% sure, Marc will probably be able to confirm this. I will look at the regimental history Volume 2 to see what it has to say about the 7 Dec 1915. Take up Marc's offer regarding guidance and help as you can see he has much at his finger tips.

Roger

[apwright]

I imagine that Henry didn't die on the 7th (as per death cert) either but was captured on that day and died at some point after this, well either that or he didn't die in Bulgaria like the cert says. The date of the 7th & Bulgaria can't both be right can they?

The 10/Hampshire's initial position on 7 December on the Dorsale des 5 Arbres was virtually on the border between Serbia and Bulgaria (actually just inside Serbia). A mile or so NW of them was the village of Kosturino - in Bulgaria. And less than a mile in front to the east was Ormanli in Serbia.

After the liberation from the Turks in the First Balkan War 1912-13, Bulgarian territory included the area around Strumica, Edrenik and Kosturino. This region was ceded to Serbia after WW1. It's all FYROM now.

Your great-uncle would only have to have walked (or be carried) a few hundred yards to be officially on Bulgarian soil. I'd guess he was wounded during the Bulgarian assault and left behind when the position was evacuated.

Hope this helps!

Adrian

[axe010170]

The 10/Hampshire's initial position on 7 December on the Dorsale des 5 Arbres was virtually on the border between Serbia and Bulgaria (actually just inside Serbia). A mile or so NW of them was the village of Kosturino - in Bulgaria. And less than a mile in front to the east was Ormanli in Serbia.

After the liberation from the Turks in the First Balkan War 1912-13, Bulgarian territory included the area around Strumica, Edrenik and Kosturino. This region was ceded to Serbia after WW1. It's all FYROM now.

Your great-uncle would only have to have walked (or be carried) a few hundred yards to be officially on Bulgarian soil. I'd guess he was wounded during the Bulgarian assault and left behind when the position was evacuated.

Hope this helps!

Adrian

Thanks Adrian, Yes it helps a lot.

[axe010170]

Just starting to get into this with the CWGC.

They're asking for any additional info I have to support Henrys death as being on 7th instead of the 31st Dec 1915.

Does anyone have an electronic copy of the History Vol.2 that Roger referred to in the earlier post about the action on the 7th and that nothing was reported on the 31st?

I've sent them all the other evidence I collected.

Here is a little bit of the CWGC response to my query.......

I confirm that our records consistently reflect the date of death of this casualty as 31st December 1915, this being the date supplied to us by the service authorities at the time. The service authorities also sometimes provided ages for casualties but it was much more common for next of kin to give us this information when we sent 'Final Verification Forms' to them to complete after the war. Unfortunately, as these forms no longer survive, I am unable to physically check to see what details were given by Private Mancey's father after the war.

Please be advised that your enquiry and the death certificate you kindly sent have been passed to our Records Section for further investigation. They will contact you again, as soon as possible, with the results of their findings. Their reply may be delayed however, particularly should it prove necessary to liaise with outside sources.

[axe010170]

Marc,

None of the PM's I've sent you are showing up in my 'Sent Items' and I've not received any PM's either so I'm wondering if my mails working properly. Have you received anything from me?

Regards

Martin.