mikebriggs Posted 29 April , 2009 Share Posted 29 April , 2009 Dear all Here we have a Senior NCO of the Lincolnshire Regt. Pre-War and Territorial I believe, and in fact I think photo was taken in 1910 or 1912 Any pointers to Battn, badges and rank gratefully accepted thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 5 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2009 And here we have full photograph in the YMCA tent The young drummer is wearing a broderick cap (I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myos Posted 5 May , 2009 Share Posted 5 May , 2009 The Divisional Formation Sign must be a big clue, someone on here will recognise it. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 6 May , 2009 Share Posted 6 May , 2009 It's one of the Linc's Volunteer Battalions at their Annual Camp. Home in on the Sgt in SD turning his back to you as you may be able to work out his S/T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 6 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2009 thanks Graham in that case we are looking at either 1st VB (Lincoln), 2nd VB (Grantham) or 3rd VB (Grimsby) out of those chooses my money would be on 2 ? at least on the right photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Fantastic photo Mike, a real mixture of uniforms there. I can't add anything to what you've already said, but that's definitely a 2. Any ideas what that is - and what is represents - underneath the 2 and above the crown? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Hi Paul I think that must be a "V" for Volunteer, but its a bit obscured by the fold in the sleeve. The one on the left shows it better. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Ah, not that one; I hadn't noticed the V actually. I meant the large star (for want of a better description). Any idea what that is? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 oh right.....sorry well I'm not great on rank badges but is he a Colour-Sergeant (crown?) with a proficiency star the other guy is a Sergeant with a proficiency star Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Ah OK, thanks. Once I get GRUMPY's latest chef d'ouvre I won't need to ask these questions. Would you have any objections if I used the photo on the relevant post on my Lincolnshire Regt Army Service Numbers blog? Happy to credit you, provide back links etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 The large four- point star has had many incarnations .... in scarlet, gold embroidered, worsted for SD etc etc., for VF, TF, OTC, Cadet Force ....... In this super photograph we have the star as the Senior NCO Proficiency badge 'to be worn above all others' as the regs. state. Three chevrons and crown is the colour sergeant. He wears his musketry marksman crossed rifles lower left cuff, and his several 5 - point stars denoting Efficiency [could be worn by all ranks, a simple matter of attendance and basic skills] on his right cuff. The Brodrick helps to date the photo, but not very precisely, because [other than for RM] it was introduced 1902 and phased out c.1906 BUT VF would tend to get the issue late and get the issue of the successor late as well. What this may mean is that the camp might just be TF rather than VF, 1908-ish. When I send this off, I will return to photo to see if there are any other clues as to dating. The SD jacket is the early issue, with shoulder cords, not straps, so I begin to favourearly in my range of dates, rather than later. Also visible: pioneer crossed axes, the cuff lozenge denoting efficiency 'this year', what is probably the 'SB' in circle denoting VF stretcher bearer, and what may be a drum badge standing near to him. The scruffy man in tunic order wears the version which was phased out c. 1902, with the white braiding at the BOTTOM of the collar, rather than on top, as later. He is probably from a 'Royal' regiment, because 'non-royal did not usually have collar braiding at that time. The photo would make a series of fine blow-ups of individuals, I think. Please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 The photo would make a series of fine blow-ups of individuals, I think. Please! Happy to oblige; here are the first few Paul, please feel free to use as you wish. I was looking at your blog last night and not realising the author . Very interesting read #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 and the rest........... #6 #7 #8 is that the lot? Could this have been taken at Llandudno Camp? did the Lincs go there prior to 1908? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 further analysis tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Mike - what makes you think Llandudno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Paul, please feel free to use as you wish. I was looking at your blog last night and not realising the author . Very interesting read Mike thanks for the permission and the compliment. I've now updated my post on the 4th Lincs accordingly. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Photo 1 apppears to a bandsman and it's possible that the battalion decided to give that smarter look by continuing the white piping around the base of the skirt bringing it all the way around and up the opening of the jacket on the opposite side. Generally the piping ceases at base of the jacket. Another interesting feature to Lincoln collectors will be the badge worn on the Field Service cap. It appears to be a large Sphinx on a tablet only with no scroll below. It certainly looks larger than the collar badges being worn and being a VB would have a blank tablet ie no "Egypt" on it. I have a few Northumberland VB photo's in my own collection and all wear a cloth 'V' below the battalion numeral in SD, which ceases on the introduction of multi-tier titles when becoming Territorials. However some new TF units continued to wear cloth titles and then exchanged the 'V' for a 'T' and changed cloth numerals to suite their listing. These cloth titles are far superior to the ones later introduced for wear with Battle Dress in the early 40's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Mike - what makes you think Llandudno? Andy, as usual its one of my long shots This PC came with a set of about 12 PCs that belonged to Sergt Rhyme of the 8th Battalion N & D (the other thread that's been running). Now Charles Rhymes originally enlisted into the 4th Notts VB on 10th November 1903 in Radcliffe-on-Trent and was posted to “E” Company. In amongst these PCs were 2 or 3 that are clearly pre-1908, one of which is a colourised photo of "Volunteer Camp, Conway, near Llandudno". I have assumed (maybe incorrectly) that there is some connection between all of these PCs in the collection. At first I though that this 'Lincs YMCA' PC might have been taken at the 1910 or 1912 North Midland Divisional Camps (but this now no longer seems the case). So I'm still trying to find the connection and wondered if it is a shared Volunteer Camp?? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Hi Mike I will have to look when i get home tonight but sure i have a couple of cards that show Lincs Volunteers at camp at Conway. The date from memory was 1906, but will check for you when i get home. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 1. I agree is probably a bandsman .... the 'piping' [clothing regs called it anything BUT piping] is very non-standard all over the garment. Definitely Lincs, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Thanks Chris, I'll be interested to know if they were in the vicinity. In the mean time I did a bit of digging around and found out that indeed the Notts & Derby Volunteers were at Conway in 1906 This list also helps ID some of the other PCs with this collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 2. is a Cpl Pioneer in tunic order with standard 'piping' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 4. is a stretcher bearer, and 5. may be wearing the rarely seen Brigade Supply Detachment trefoil. I would love to see a top quality scan by email. 6. may be a band corporal ..... see 'piping' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 8. is really odd ...... he wears the single bugle badge, indicating that his battalion had 'buglers' rather than 'drummers'. His jacket is also odd, with shoulder straps. His stetson style hat harks to the days when SD was introduced without any firm guidance as to the headgear to wear with it. I tend more and more to c. 1905 as a date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 In amongst these PCs were 2 or 3 that are clearly pre-1908, one of which is a colourised photo of "Volunteer Camp, Conway, near Llandudno". Ah! Actually in Conwy (as it is spelled now) rather than Llandudno. Pictures of the camp (some pre-war) here: http://www.oldukphotos.com/caernarfonshireconwypage3.htm (One shows the Derby 2nd VB camp!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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