Tank 2024 A59, White Chateau, Hollebeke

[chrislock]

Ref post #1.

Hi Nick. The Tank Memorial Ypres Salient confirms both Poole and Spreadborough were indeed KIA during this action. Bellamy recovered from his wounds only to fall in battle on Oct 4th at Reutel. This action involved again the tanks of No 12 Section again but A59 this time was lost. No 12 Section Commander Capt Clement Robertson would win a posthumous VC in this action, the first VC to the Tank Corps. On June 22nd, a 1st VC to the Tank Corps battlefield tour has been arranged (free to all) and will take place on conclusion of the main TMYS annual ceremony taking place within St Georges Memorial Church Ypres. Here you go: http://www.tankmemorial.vpweb.co.uk/ *An alternate commemoration ceremony concerning the 2nd Batt RSF WW2 action at White Chateau, today that being the Pallingbeek Golf Club has just taken place. White Chateau has seen both WW1 and WW2 actions. Lest We Forget.

[HenryTheGerman]

Here it is!

Regards

henryTheGerman

[Yeomans]

Henry,

I would be very interested to see the photographs. Arthur was driving A59 a Male Mk IV.

Regards

Nick

[chrislock]

Nick. Please see post #51 and you will see the tank was lost!

It was commanded at the time by 2/Lt J A Ehrhardt and eventually lost after being damaged then abandoned.

Gunner T Bellamy was posted as missing and his name appears today on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing.

He is one of several men included for commemoration on the very location where he went missing on Saturday 22/6/13.

[Sidearm]

Henry

Many thanks for posting this photo, even though it is poor it is better than nothing! If you have more then I for one would be interested in seeing what you have, The photo, by the way, does show a Male and I think it's a Mark IV though obviously both the tank and the photograph have suffered.

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

Also, might I point out that I know of three tanks, all Mark IVs, that were known as A59 during 1917? The first was 2024, a Male commanded by 2/Lt Duckett, lost during the Battle of Messines on 7 June. The second was 2032, another Male, this one commanded by 2/Lt Ehrhardt ditched and abandoned on 4 October. Finally, 4586, a Female also commanded by 2/Lt Ehrhardt that fought during the Battle of Cambrai in November.

So it appears to me that there may be some confusion about the first two of these tanks in previous posts in this thread.

Gwyn

[HenryTheGerman]

@Gwyn

There is a 2nd photography in my grandfather's album but it had been taken from the same position than the first one. Therefore you will not find many more details. At the next weekend I will post the other photo, too.

Besides the two tank pictures my grandfather's photo album is a treasure trowe that was forgotten in a wardrobe. Some negatives of the printouts survived, too. And we can precisely comprehend when and where the photos were taken.

Regards

Henry

[Sidearm]

It's marvellous what keeps turning up even after 100 years. Thanks for sharing them with us, Henry.

Gwyn

[chrislock]

Great stuff guys. Most interesting and thank you for sharing this info.

One point however: the information I have as supplied by the Tank Museum curator reveals this tank was not just ditched and abandoned as would happen to many others.

The report reveals that the tank firstly received battle damage due to the penetration of many AP MG rounds and close proximity shell detonations damaging one of the 6pounders and the un ditching beam then being shot away.

The crew/engine compartment then became flooded and only then was the tank abandoned.

This info is important as a tank lost simply due to ditching may raise issues of crew error, trust me! To become ditched and then abandoned after receiving battle damage suggests the tank being disabled and then lost. There is a huge difference.

I believe this scenario would render the tank listed as disabled/abandoned rather than simply ditched/abandoned. There is a subtle difference especially as per the way we tank crewmen view their losses. Small point I know but an important one.

Chris

[Yeomans]

Thanks everyone and particularly to Henry for posting the photograph.

Just to confirm from my initial post : Arthur Spreadborough was the driver of 2024 commanded by 2/Lt Duckett and was killed in action on 7 June 1917 during the Battle of Messines.

Nick

[Sidearm]

Great stuff guys. Most interesting and thank you for sharing this info.

One point however: the information I have as supplied by the Tank Museum curator reveals this tank was not just ditched and abandoned as would happen to many others.

The report reveals that the tank firstly received battle damage due to the penetration of many AP MG rounds and close proximity shell detonations damaging one of the 6pounders and the un ditching beam then being shot away.

The crew/engine compartment then became flooded and only then was the tank abandoned.

This info is important as a tank lost simply due to ditching may raise issues of crew error, trust me! To become ditched and then abandoned after receiving battle damage suggests the tank being disabled and then lost. There is a huge difference.

I believe this scenario would render the tank listed as disabled/abandoned rather than simply ditched/abandoned. There is a subtle difference especially as per the way we tank crewmen view their losses. Small point I know but an important one.

Chris

Chris,

This is correct for tank 2032 A59 lost on 4 October 1917, but that is not the same A59 as that lost on 7 June 1917, which was 2024. I'm afraid I was summarising the information I had to hand for 2032 out of sheer laziness.

Gwyn

[chrislock]

You raise important issues Gwyn. Many tank names and call signs were transferred from tank to tank but all had their individual production/identification serial number and I will do well to remember that also! Fascinating thread!!

[HenryTheGerman]

... here is the 2nd picture of the tank - again I must apologize for the quality of the picture.

If you like to see a photography of the photographer of the tank: Have a look to my thread location of the pillbox "Jägerhaus". The bareheaded Hussars officer in the center -that's him.

Regards

Henry

[Sidearm]

You raise important issues Gwyn. Many tank names and call signs were transferred from tank to tank but all had their individual production/identification serial number and I will do well to remember that also! Fascinating thread!!

No worries Chris, it's a common error. I think there must be something seriously wrong with me to find serial numbers interesting...

Henry: thank you for posting your second photo

Gwyn

[centurion]

I guess the chances of there being a photograph of Arthur's tank will be very remote- but who knows.

Nick

Who knows? I thought I had it but it was 2021 when I looked at the photo. BTW the A59 number was a crew identification number and may have been applied to a number of tanks at different times and so may not uniquely identify Arthur's tank, only if you find a photo showing the 2024 serial number can you be certain.

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

Are you still looking for a clear picture? Have a look at this topic:

 

It seems it was called "HMLS Slippery Sam"?

 

Jan

[AOK4]

I can BTW confirm the picture of Heinrich shows the same tank as on my picture ("HMLS Slippery Sam"), but from the other side.

[Guest]

Hello, i was doing some research on the White Castle and found your forum.

Allow me to jump in.

My family was the owner of this castle, called also the castle of Woormezeele.

Built in the early 1800' in a pure Rennaissance style, by Maximilien de Neckere, senator of Ypres.

it was baught by Auguste MAHIEU in 1873. Marie-Louise MAHIEU-FERRY decided in 1900 to destroy it and rebuild a bigger one in a pure Louis XIV style.

Completely destroyed in WWI only the outbuildings and hunting lodges remained.

these dependencies still exist today and are inhabited.

Her 2 sons died during the war, one died in Bois des Caures, Verdun (infantery) his remains are in the ossuary and one near Ham, Somme, (Pilote)his plane was shot down his body was never found.

Thus my grand father Jean COSSART, cousin of the MAHIEU, was the only descendant as he survived WW1.

French native he decided to stay in Belgium, even if the factories where in Armentieres, and he rebuild in 1936 a big house nearby where the white castle was which is now since 1987 (when he died) the house of the Palingbeke golf country club.

All the bodies and bones found later in the fields around the house where given to the local authorities.

The castle of Hollebeke, also destroyed in WWI, located on the other side of the village (after the old canal and railroad) was owned by the VALEDELIEVRE family, my grand mother.

Most of he furnitures inside the White castle has been stolen, only 1 statute in white marbre was found early 2000 in Brussels during one auction house.

We were able to get it back. Just before the war starts Mme MAHIEU requested to bury some silverware and elephant defenses and we found the following : in february 1916 a German trench newspaper written by Haupman G.WOLTERS, das infanterie-regiment Konig Wilhehm I.Nr 124 im Weltkrieg 14-18 mentions finding boxes with elephant defences while digging shelters !

I got some pictures from these 2 castles but they are existing from what i saw in his forum.

Emmanuel

 

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Emmanuel, welcome to the forum, the original poster @Yeomans hasn't been on the forum since September but some of the other contributors are still very active and I am sure they will appreciate your additional information.  

[HenryTheGerman]

Dear Emmanuel

Many thanks for your post, it is much appreciated. Very interesting to learn more about the historical background of the manors and of the properties. During the "Operation Michael" my grandfather who was a German observer used the huge heap of debris which formerly had been the White Chateau as an observation post. The debris was still heavily shelled by a huge flat trajectory gun. The area was totally pulverized and multifoldly destroyed. After the war, it must have been a tremendous work to recultivate the landscape and to remove and to remediate all the residues of buildings, positions, armaments etc.. The clean up work certainly extended over a couple of years, I assume.

Regards

Henry

[Guest]

On 30/12/2019 at 09:45, emmanuel COSSART said:

Bonjour, je faisais des recherches sur le château blanc et j'ai trouvé votre forum.

Permettez-moi de me lancer.

Ma famille était propriétaire de ce château, appelé aussi le château de Woormezeele.

Construit au début des années 1800 dans un pur style Renaissance, par Maximilien de Neckere, sénateur d'Ypres.

il fut pris par Auguste MAHIEU en 1873. Marie-Louise MAHIEU-FERRY décida en 1900 de détruire et d'en reconstruire un plus grand dans un pur style Louis XIV.

Complètement détruit pendant la Première Guerre mondiale, seules les dépendances et les pavillons de chasse sont restés.

ces dépendances étaient encore aujourd'hui et sont habitées.

Ses 2 fils sont morts pendant la guerre, l'un est mort à Bois des Caures, Verdun (infanterie) ses restes sont dans l'ossuaire et un près de Ham, Somme, (Pilote) son avion a été abattu son corps corps corps n 'a jamais été retrouvé.

Ainsi mon grand-père Jean COSSART, cousin du MAHIEU, était le seul descendant à avoir survécu à la Première Guerre mondiale.

Originaire de France il a été décidé de rester en Belgique, même si les usines étaient à Armentières, et il a été reconstruit en 1936 une grande maison à proximité où se trouve le château blanc qui est maintenant depuis 1987 (à sa mort) la maison du Palingbeke club de golf.

Tous les corps et les ossements retrouvés plus tard dans les champs autour de la maison ont été remis aux autorités locales.

Le château de Hollebeke, également détruit lors de la Première Guerre mondiale, situé de l'autre côté du village (après l'ancien canal et chemin de fer) appartenait à la famille VALEDELIEVRE, ma grand-mère.

La plupart des meubles à l'intérieur du château blanc ont été volés, un seul statut en marbre blanc a été trouvé début 2000 à Bruxelles lors d'une maison de vente aux enchères.

Nous avons pu le récupérer. Juste avant le début de la guerre, Mme MAHIEU a demandé à enterrer de l'argenterie et des défenses d'éléphants et nous avons trouvé ce qui suit : en février 1916, un journal de tranchée allemand écrit par Haupman G.WOLTERS, das infanterie -regiment Konig Wilhehm I.Nr 124 im Weltkrieg 14-18 mentionne trouver des boîtes avec des défenses d'éléphants tout en creusant des abris!

J'ai obtenu quelques photos de ces 2 châteaux mais elles existent d'après ce que j'ai vu sur son forum.

Emmanuel

 

 

 

Bonjour je fais du rangement dans des photos récupérées de ma mère et j'ai trouvé quelques photos de mon arriere grand père (tailleur de pierres) qui pose avec d'autres ouvriers devant un chateau qui ressemble fortement à HOLLBECKE

Je n'ai pas l'année de ces travaux mais je suppose, vers 1900 ...

Si vous êtes intéressés par ces photos faites le moi savoir

Je continuerai mes recherches pour trouver le nom du château, car malheureusement je n'ai que YPRES en Belgique comme annotation sur ou derriere les photos

Brigitte D

[David_Blanchard]

The attack on White Chateau and the appearance of the tank is documented in Frank Dunham’s diary - published as ‘The Long Carry’ the Messines attack pages 47 to 56.