24th Field Ambulance

[sotonmate]

On 12/03/2017 at 14:06, sotonmate said:

Looking at other brother "William D" is in fact William Owen SLOCOMBE born Camelford, Cornwall in 1898,aged 3 in the 1901 Census.

Married Dorothy M STENLAKE in Tavistock, Devon in 1st Quarter of 1928. Haven't yet found any children from that marriage, or William's death later, but worth a check just in case they didn't sail away somewhere to live.

I see that there was a Dorothy M Slocombe resident at 4 Overton Villas LAUNCESTON Cornwall in 1981.

[The Inspector]

Hi All

Richard Cyril Slocombe's mother, Annie Elizabeth Slocombe nee Prust died  27.3.1960 aged 91 yrs, (7a,76) Launceston. Probate to her sister Winifred Mary.

PRUST Trees on Ancestry. Canadian connection......looking

Regards Barry

It looks like there may be distant living relatives in Canada on the PRUST side of the family....

Edited 14 March , 2017 by The Inspector

[timbo58]

Hi Tew, no, not completed transcribing by some margin -about 300k ish to do if we forget the very illegible and foreign sections.

 

But over 1 million individual records now online anyway.

 

As you say, plenty left in MH106 for someone else to digitise although I have been led to understand 'a large company' looked at these registers (and presumably the rest of MH106) more than once and rejected them over previous years.

 

TNA were also very careful to state they wouldn't want to see the more in depth 'personal' records within this collection made public per se when we started transcribing -hence the decision to only do the indexes anyway.

 

Although to be fair they've declared something to be 'restricted for the reading toom only' before and then gone back on it pretty soon afterwards.

 

 

 

Edited 14 March , 2017 by timbo58

[aldlb57]

Dear all,

Does anyone have an experience with the RAMC museum in Aldershot?

The website does not mention the possibility to do research (archives, photographic material etc).

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

 

Edited 30 March , 2017 by aldlb57

[aldlb57]

Dear all,

 

We found another inscription from one of the soldiers we already knew, but this time with an initial.

Instead of a private Lowe, we're now looking for a private G.Lowe (please see picture).

It is however unclear whether this is an initial of his first or middle name.

 

The same goes for a private D.F.Wilkins

 

The units/regiments these soldiers belonged to could have been the same as the other soldiers that incribed their names:

2 Bn Princess Charlotte of Wales’s (Royal Berkshire) Regiment (25 Infantry Brigade, 8 Div)

1 Bn Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment (Sherwood Foresters) (24 Infantry Brigade, 8 Div)

2 Bn Devonshire Regiment (23 Infantry Brigade, 8 Div)

The RAMC (24 (1st Wessex) Field Ambulance

However, they could have been part of any other unit of 8 Div of course.

 

Doing research on ancestry.co.uk, I've found some but they were discharged before october 1918 or did not belong to units of 8 Div.

 

Do you have any idea in what way these soldiers could be positively identified? Perhaps some of you use different sources.

 

Thanking you beforehand.
With kindest regards,
Andre 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 March , 2017 by aldlb57

[sotonmate]

2 hours ago, aldlb57 said:

Dear all,

Does anyone have an experience with the RAMC museum in Aldershot?

The website does not mention the possibility to do research (archives, photographic material etc).

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

 

Here the website:

https://museumofmilitarymedicine.org.uk

at Keogh Barracks, Aldershot.

I asked some years ago about WW1 records and was told they didn't have anything there. No reason not to ask again as things appear more and more as time goes by in the area of military research !

[sotonmate]

Looking at a few Medal Index Cards for D F WILKINS and G LOWE.

There are numerous ones for the latter name, but more encouraging for WILKINS. There is one with the correct initials:

Dudley Frederick WILKINS of the West Yorkshire Regiment, which had it's 2 Battalion in 27 Infantry Brigade of 8 Division. Wilkins began service as a Private 1363, later re-numbered to 305093, and later still was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the same Regiment.

There are some snags. The Private served with 7 Battalion. We don't yet know when he became a 2/Lt. If it was 1918 and IF he served with 2 Bn. would he have been in the attic as a wounded 2/Lt or elsewhere in a more comfortable place ?! Bit more to do on this but promising in it's feature of being the only soldier with the right name/initials.

In respect of the LOWE cards there are many, quite a few in the RFA, and some discounted by earlier casualties/discharges. It may be more complex even if he only scratched his first initial and had another on his records, in which case it becomes 2 or 3 times a problem of ID. I vaguely remember searching for LOWE in the opening sequences of this task  and deciding that some really good luck is needed.

Edited 30 March , 2017 by sotonmate

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

Thank you for the lead. Dudley Frederick Wilkins had a battlefield commission. As a non Sandhurst man, he might have scratched his name in the attick.

I wonder how one could find out when he was commissioned and if he served with 2nd Bn.

With kindest regards,

Andre

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

I found this Sherwood Forester in dispatches. I wonder if he could be our man.

What do you think?

With kindest regards,

Andre

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

Concerning Wilkins, please have a look at these two files.

On the medal card, he became 2nd Lieutenant and then Lieutenant. Unfortunately, no date is mentioned.

On the roll of individuals entitled to the Victory medal and British War medal, which was signed in november 1920, he still is a lance-corporal.

Could it be that Wilkins came out of the war as a lance corporal and got a commission as an officer after 1920? 

The roll does not mention that he went into "Z reserve" but instead "Disched to Com 7th W York R. 29/1/18".

What does this mean? Did he stay in the army as a regular after the war was over? What does the R mean before the date?

What about the handwritten references behind his name? Do you know what they mean?

Also, he seemed to have left 1/8 W York as a private to go to "Attd 146/2 T. M. Bty. 1363". Do you have any clue what this jargon means?

Could "Bty" mean "battery"? 

All very intriguing! In any case, I understand that he did not serve with 2 Bn so he probably is not our man. Or am I rushing to conclusions?

With all my thanks! It is heart warming to know that there is someone "out there" that listens in and gives advice!

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

Searching with only the initials, another roll mentiones a 2Lieut D.F.Wilkins.

The document is not signed at the bottom and not dated.

However, behind Wilkins' name appear the same reference "NW/4/6566" as on the other two documents and the date 19.1.22

I'm trying to understand and to learn:

It looks like that this roll has not been used to list officers that are entitled to the Victory medal and British War medal.

This would not make sense as Wilkins' name already appears on such a roll.

Could it be that this roll was used to list newly commissioned officers?

With kindest regards,
Andre

 

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

I found a soldier that could match G.Lowe.

It is private George Lowe who served with 2Bn East Lancashire Regiment at the end of the war.

This battalion was part of the 24th infantry brigade, 8 Division.

The first units that entered the town of Saint-Amand-Les-Eaux on 21st october 1918 were 2 Bn East Lancashire Regiment and 1 Bn Sherwood Foresters.

I'll keep on checking files to find out if more soldiers match G.Lowe and served in units of 8 Division.

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate and other friends,

It is confirmed that "D.F.Wilkins" is 2nd lieutenant Dudley Frederick Wilkins who served with 2 Bn West Yorkshire Regiment from July 5, 1918 until November 18, 1918.

I found his trace in the unit's war diary. 

Please see the three pages of the war diary. The first announces Wilkins' arrival at the battalion on July 5, 1918.

The second states that he went to hospital because he was sick (and then carved his name in the attick) on October 29, 1918.

The third states that he was "struck off the strenght on proceeding to England for transfer to Indian Army" on November 18, 1918. 

This means that Wilkins stayed with the battalion for only 4 months.

My questions:

1. Is it strange that this information (posting to 2 Bn) is not mentioned on the medal card and roll for British war medakl and victory medal?

2. What does "Attd 146/2 T.M. Bty." mean? Was this some officer training unit?

3. Does the transfer to the Indian Army mean that Wilkins was a professional soldier?

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

 

[sotonmate]

Andre

 

Sorry that I have been out of the game for a while ! You have done what I had in mind - search the War Diary(ies) ! Well done !

I will find some time soon to answer some of your questions and try to develop your messages. I am at the National Archives on 25 April and was planning to see if I can find DFWs papers - I have to say that I have looked in the Officer File Index on WO338 on the Kew database (it is digital online and readable) but had no luck with the name in the two possible alpha files. I will also look at the Indian Army List on 25th to see if he had a career in India after WW1.

One of your answers is that 146/2 TMB refers to DFW joining a Trench Mortar Battery of 146 Infantry Brigade of 49 Division, this may have been populated ,or added to,by elements of the units which made up the Brigade. The 3163 at the end is merely his service number. In relation to the medals it must be remembered that his entitlement arose on Day 1 of his landing in a war Zone, so he was a Private. I suggest that the Officer (blank) Medal Roll that you have posted may just have been an aide memoire to a diligent clerk who seems to have listed his charges only to find when the time came that they had been dealt with on the OR Lists. Of course, Officers had to apply for their medals whereas ORs received them automatically.

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

You have been of incalculable help to me! 

Concerning Wilkins, many questions still remain:

- Is there any way to understand the meaning of the references on medal cards?:

"NW/4/6566"

"On R + F Roll of 2/[??] B38/5013"

"} I.V. X/2830 d/19.1.22"

"[???]netd 23.12.[??]

- According to the war diary, he was transferred to the Indian Army on November 18, 1918 but the medal card mentions: "Dis to Comm" and the medal roll: "Disched to comm 7 W York" with a date "R. 29/1/18" (does "R" means "reserve"?). No mention of "2 W York" or "Indian Army".

Are there any written sources that could help in understanding the army administrative codes?

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate and other friends,

 

Concerning the 1918, signatures of soldiers in the attick of our school, three show two similarities:

1. all three were first enlisted in the Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry before being transferred to 2 Bn Royal Berkshire Regiment.

2. neither of the three have been identified after going through the 1901 or 1911 census archives.

 

One of the questions is where to look: Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire or Berkshire?

 

The information about these soldiers is the following:

STOKES, David, private, 5 O.B.L.I. (number 11241), 2 R Berks (number 45323)

TURNER, Norman J. , private, 5 O.B.L.I. (number 23098), 2 R Berks (number 45410) 

LOWE, George H., private, 2 O.B.L.I. (number 23019), 2 R Berks (number 45317) 

 

Looking at their R Berks regimental numbers, could one presume that the three arrive at the unit at around the same time?

Did 2 and 5 O.B.L.I. serve as training units for 2 R Berks?

How to find additional information about these chaps?

 

Thanking you beforehand,

With kindest regards,

Andre

[sotonmate]

Andre

 

Mostly Admin "gobbledegook" I would say - references and confirmations to action taken during the process of medal entitlement and issue.

The NW/4/6566 seems to be a ref to the paper which has dealt with the processing of DFWs medals. It is shown twice on the MIC.

On R&F (Rank and File) Roll O/2/104B38 page 5013 refers to the actual Medal Roll which you have posted here, you will see the number 5013 on the top right of the page. Before these pages were digitised this reference was used at Kew to find the correct WO329 Ledger in which the Roll was stored, cross-referring it from an Index book which listed by Regiment.

EA9 retd (returned) and date 23.12.1921.NW/4/6566 is likely to have been the form which advised that the Officer had already been allocated his medals earlier ( looks like 1920 on the Medal Roll).

IVX/2830 seems yet another form dated 19.1.1922 referring again to NW/4/6566 for confirming that the process of issue of Brit War and Victory Medals has been covered. There is probably another Medal Roll covering his 1914-15 Star issue.

The Dis(charge) to Comm(ission) entry and date likely means that R 29.1.1918 is when he changed from L/Cpl to 2/Lieutenant. Not Reserve I would certainly say, and yet Resign may not be the right word to have used either !

It seems likely to me that DFW, as an Officer, applied for his Medals before he actually got them automatically, and a process of answering his request generated extra forms ! I would say that his Leeds address was entered on the Card from his letter during 1921. This might not help your quest in terms of Census to find where he lived before the war !

[johnboy]

Is this of any help with background info?

 

http://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/history/first+world+war/the+25th+1st+wessex+field+ambulance

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

Concerning Dudley Frederick Wilkins, I researched the Officer File Index on WO338 on the Kew database using "Dudley Wilkins".

I found a reference WO 372/21/165428 (medal card, probably the same we already found) that mentions that Wilkins was a lieutenant with the West Yorkshire Regiment.

Remember: he left 2 Bn West Yorkshire as a 2nd lieutenant in order to go to the Indian Army.

If he did go to India, doesn't the reference data imply that he joined another battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment there?

With kindest regards,

Andre

[familyhistoryman]

On 05/03/2017 at 03:37, aldlb57 said:

I'm a professor at the high school "Institution Notre Dame des Anges" in the town of Saint-Amand-les-Eaux in Northern France and doing research concerning 24th (1st Wessex) Field Ambulance. This reseach is done in preparation of ceremonies next year when we'll be celebrating the centennial of the end of the Great War.

Ceremonies will be organised by the town (I reckon the CO of 243 Field Hospital, the unit that continues the tradition of 24th (1 Wessex) Field Ambulance, will be invited) and by our school.

The field ambulance turned our school into a hospital in october 1918. After having taken care of approximately 2000 French civilians in the town, the unit received the French Croix de Guerre with bronze star. The unit's war diary shows that the Croix de Guerre was received in the town of Engien, during a parade, on 31st January 1919 from the hands of French general Degoutte, commanding the 5th French Army. Another Croix de Guerre was issued to the CO of 24th Field Ambulance, LCol R. Burgess, DSO, MC.

 

My first question/request:

Does 243 Field Hospital possess the original certificate that goes with the Croix de Guerre? It should mention the date and place of issue, the French commanding officer that awarded the Croix the Guerre and a detailed description of the actions that motivate the issueing of the medal. I'd be most interested in finding a copy (scan or photograph) of this certificate.

 

In the attick of the school's chapel, close to the quarters where wounded were tended, inscriptions of 8 British soldiers can be seen that date from 1918. These must have been patients. I list the names (most probably all privates) below with, if and when possible, the unit they belonged to:

- Pte R. Cyrn or Cyril - 2nd Bn, The Royal berkshire Regt - 25th infantry brigade - 8th div

- Slocombe - same unit

- Pte D. Stokes - "Late O.B.L.I." - same unit

- N.J.Turner - Nov 8th, 1918 - same unit

- O. Fuller - Oct 21st 1918 - 1st Bn, the Sherwood Foresters - 24th infantry brigade - 8th div

- D.F. Wilkins 

- Lowe

- M.Mallett

 

Next year, the Headmaster would like to invite surviving family of these soldiers to come to our school, view the traces of their ancestors and participate in the ceremonies as guests of honour.

 

My second question/request:

I'd like to find out how these soldiers could be identified. Are there still patient files of 24th Field Ambulance from 1918 in some archives? If yes, where and could these be consulted? If not, would it be possible to consult military files (military register or demob files) of the Royal Berkshire Regiment and the Sherwood Foresters? 

 

My third question/request:

Is there any pictorial archive of 24th Field Ambulance  from which copies of photographs can be obtained?

Thanking you beforehand.
With kindest regards,

Andre de la Bruyère

 

My email address is aldelabruyere(a)free.fr

 

Hi

Regarding your requests for information on the 24th Field Ambulance I would suggest you contact the Royal Army Medical Corp Museum, see

https://museumofmilitarymedicine.org.uk/

 

Regards Tony Foster

[aldlb57]

Dear Johnboy, Dear Tony,

 

Thank you for your much appreciated help and encouragement.

 

I've been in touch with Chris Copson, curator of the 'the keep" museum who put me in contact with Katherine and David Seymour, who are researching the history of field ambulances in general and 24 (1st Wessex) Field Ambulance in particular. Catherine and David have been to The Museum of Military Medicine in Aldershot and spoken to the curator. Unfortunately, that museum does not have any photos of 24 FA.

Chris promised me to go through the collection of the "keep" museum and forward any photographic material of any relevance.

For the moment, I haven't received any news yet.

 

It is amazing how little photographs have surfaced, knowing that the Great war was quite extensively photographed. I still keep my fingers crossed for photo's of 24 FA in Saint-Amand in 1918 to surface.

 

With kindest regards,

Andre

Edited 22 April , 2017 by aldlb57

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate,

I attached the complete research file on lieutenant Dudley Frederick Wilkins.

The London Gazette information from 1935 still needs to be verified.

With kindest regards,

Andre

WILKINS D.F. research file 170422.pdf

Edited 23 April , 2017 by aldlb57

[aldlb57]

Dear Sotonmate and other friends,

I herewith attach the research files concerning the three servicemen of which I do not seem to be able to find additional information other than medal cards.

Perhaps some of you know how to unearth more data.

Thanking you beforehand.

With kindest regards,

Andre

1st file: David Stokes

STOKES David research file 170414.pdf

2nd file: Norman J. Turner

TURNER Norman J. research file 170414.pdf

3rd file: George H. Lowe

LOWE George .H. research file 170414.pdf

[johntanner]

A though on these three, will try to dig a bit more later. 5th OBLI was reduced to a cadre and surviving men dispersed to other Bns in April 1918.  Although one of these first served overseas with the 2nd, my guess is they were all part of this dispersal.

[aldlb57]

Dear Johntanner,

Your help is very much appreciated!

With kindest regards,

Andre