Red Lodge & Dead Mans Bottom

[Max]

Yes a look at 4/RB diary is need also a look at 3/K.R.R.C. diary to see if it makes any mention of whereabouts of line taken over from PPCLI, wheather its original front line or support line or parts of both.

Hello Annette

Just a little snippet from 27th Div diary for the 8th May:

"12 noon 80th Brigade report following from 4th Rifle Brigade - "At 11.50.am. 4/KRR reinforced by 1 1/2 Coys R Bde, are holding support trenches through wood South of BELLEWAARDE LAKE. The PPCLI reinforced by 1 1/2 Coys R Bde are holding their support trenches in wood J.7.a.4""

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Andy

Thanks for further info. from 27th Div. diary. I have just spent several hours going over and over and over the three accounts, and by George I think I am beginning to make some kind of sense of it (but can not see the total picture, there will never be a total picture because most of the men who took part were either killed on the day or died later in the war), but it as given me one hell of a head ache so I will not go into detail yet I need to site down and type it out in plain terms, which I will post here to see if you and indeed other agree with or not (will have to wait to Sunday or Monday as I have hockey tomorrow, and don’t say jolly hockey sticks). But I would like to ask some questions now to help make the picture a little clearer in my mind.

One—was Capt. Mallinson with the 3/Mons or 1/KOYLI.

Two– if Capt. Mallinson was with the 1/KOYLI. Which Company was he with on the 8th May.

Three– is there a citation for Mallinson DSO (won on this day), and if there is can anyone post it here for us.

Four– where was Brooke’s H.Q. on the 8th (which wood)

Five– where was D Coy 1/KOYLI positioned on the 8th

Six –what time did it get dark in early May.

Annette

[Max]

One—was Capt. Mallinson with the 3/Mons or 1/KOYLI.

Two– if Capt. Mallinson was with the 1/KOYLI. Which Company was he with on the 8th May.

Three– is there a citation for Mallinson DSO (won on this day), and if there is can anyone post it here for us.

Four– where was Brooke’s H.Q. on the 8th (which wood)

Five– where was D Coy 1/KOYLI positioned on the 8th

Six –what time did it get dark in early May.

Hello Annette

This to the best of my knowledge:

1/ Mallinson was 1/KOYLI

2/ Mallinson was senior officer on the firing line and under normal circumstances he was D Coy commander (my GGrandfathers CO).

3/ His DSO Citation reads: "For conspicuous gallantry and ability on 8th May 1915, at Frezenberg, where he held his own in his trenches all day under a severe and accurate bombardment, and drove off each infantry attack delivered by the enemy. Towards nightfall, when both his flanks were turned and no relief had arrived, he fought his way back to the second line 1000 yards in rear."

4/ This is a guess, but I think reasonably accurate. The Bn HQ was just on the left side of the Roulers - Ypres railway approx 650 yards from the level crossing and front line.

5/ According to the "History of the KOYLI" "A & B companies were shelled out of their trenches, but C & D, after resisting three attacks, only withdrew at nightfall to a position slightly in rear" Reading between the lines I would say that D Coy was on the extreme right of the Bn.

6/ No idea. Maybe one of our Belgian Pals can answer that.

Hope this helps. I have also attached a report by Captain Munby (83rd Bde Major concerning the action on the 8th)

Andy

MUNBYREP.DOC

[mordac]

Annette - One of the problems faced by the writer of the PPCLI's history (published in 1923 by a PPCLI Lieut. who joined the battalion in June 1916) is the lack of reports from the field during this day. Only two reports made it to HQ and both were issued early in the morning. So his information comes from the PPCLI's war diary, letters and talking to survivors of the event.

I'll scan the pages from the PPCLI history and e-mail them to you; this could take a few days as my home scanner isn't working properly and I'll have to do it at work. Please e-mail me, via the forum, so I'll have a return address to send you the attachments. Any additional information from any source you can send my way would be greatly appreciated.

Andy - Thanks for uploading J. E. Munby's report. I'll need to get a large map that I can write on and try and mesh the reports, their times and map locations together.

Attached is the PPCLI summery (pages 66 and 67) in Word format.

Garth

P. S. - Thank you both for your energetic contributions to this thread. I've learned a lot regarding the events of May 8.

PPCLI_2nd_Battle_Of_Ypres.doc

[Annette Burgoyne]

Thanks Andy, the 83rd Bde report as confirmed my thoughts from looking at accounts yesterday, plus answering my questions as also helped.

Garth - no disrespect but the PPCLI summery you attached is unclear and does not match battlefield reports, I am going to go with PPCLI war diary entries and reports from units of 83rd Bde. By the way the K.S.L.I. war diary is very disappointing and gives sod all info. (but saying that its only a printed copy of the diary, I have not seen original 2/K.S.L.I. diary). Garth we must think on the same lines as last night I had one of my maps of the area out plotting the known movements of the different units its the only way to do it.

Will report back soon

Annette

[Max]

Just to add grist to the mill I have attached the 28th Div diary for the month of May.

Two or three interesting points to highlight.

1/ Notice the rising pitch of concern, verging on hysteria, that V Corps displays in its messages to 28th Div on the 8th and 9th May.

2/ The retirement of the artillery West of the canal on the early morning of the 9th when it is assessed that the GHQ line can only hold for a couple of hours at most thus leaving the poor bloody infantry virtually unprotected.

3/ This is the one and only diary entry I have seen so far that indicates that either Brigade or Division had an idea that pockets of resistance still hold the original trenches on the right

" 12.25.p.m. Report to 5th Corps. Situation on right not clear. Apparently right and centre of 83rd I.Bde have been driven in, though it is thought some hold on still. 2 Battns have been sent up to retake trenches."

Garth

Thanks for the excerpt from the PPCLI History. The part were it is stated "All morning they were able to see movement in the trenches to the north, and twice made connection with a detachment of the Monmouths." is very interesting.

The question is were these Mons the section of about 30 who were in the woods behind Red Lodge led by Corporal Sketchley (see Monmouth.doc above)? or the supporting main body of B Coy in the trenches with the KOYLI?

Andy

28thdiary.doc

[mordac]

Thought you might be interested in this letter Agar Adamson wrote his wife on May 7, 1915. It certainly outlines the precarious position the PPCLI found themselves in. Its from 'Letters Of Agar Adamson 1914 to 1919' (ISBN 1-896979-02-5) page 73:

"Bellewaerde Ridge, 6:00 p.m., 7th May 1915

My dear Mabel,

We moved up last night from our support dugouts, having been fairly well shelled.

Gow shot badly, was alive when we left, 4 men killed, 9 wounded, 2 went mad, 6 in what is called "in a state of collapse", having been shelled all day and having to remain underground all day.

Today in advance trenches since last night under very heavy artillery fire, living in deep ditches, 5 killed, 11 wounded, 1 machine gun smashed to pieces and crews buried and wounded. Capt. Gray badly shot. Counter attack by British on Hill 60 failed to dislodge the enemy. Enemy in front of us advancing their line of trenches and sniping force every direction, fire from Maxims and artillery come from 3 different directions. Our artillery almost silent and out-ranged in many places. Lieut. Bainsmith wounded.

We are relieved tomorrow night but return to dugouts, equally dangerous, though out of rifle fire. A man cannot show himself without the artillery letting off at the position. I think a trapped rat would be a more accurate simile than the Knight in Alice in Wonderland.

Gault, Niven, and I sleep in one dugout. You did not send me the photographs. I forgot if the bats did arrive, back at the transport, they could very well be used here as a weapon of defence, when our ammunition runs out. Thank you for sending them. We now have 400 fighting men and 7 officers. Hence it is up with us.

Two men have gone mad and have had to be disarmed.

It seems to be certain that this line cannot be held and we are only making a bluff of it."

On May 8 Adamson was wounded in the shoulder. He was later evacuated to England and spent five months recuperating.

Garth

[Max]

Hello Garth

Thanks very much for your input, it is letters like this that put the meat on bones. I got fed up with reading the grandiose memoirs of self important generals years ago as I honestly felt that they had no idea at all what was actually going on on the ground and as such their views were worse than useless.

Adamson paints a picture to his wife that is basically hopeless and was really preparing her for news of his death. It is very graphic and how it got through the censor, Lord only knows

thanks again

Andy

[mordac]

It is very graphic and how it got through the censor, Lord only knows

Hi Andy:

For a period of time during 1915 Captain Adamson was the battalion censor. He also had fellow officers and wounded men being evacuated post his letters for him.

Adamson wrote to his wife almost daily and all of the letters were equally as candid as the one I posted. He paints one of the most vivid pictures of day-to-day life on the Western Front as I've read.

Garth

[Annette Burgoyne]

Agar Adamson letter is very interesting as are all first hand accounts.

A man cannot show himself without the artillery letting off at the position

I get the feeling that the German artillery were out to blow every British and Canadian Soldier off the ridge that day, evan runners were shelled on their journeys (and I do not mean random shelling one K.S.L.I. runner and his mate were first set on by MG's then the artillery was turn on them but they both made it back to the G.H.Q. Trench).

Garth -Andy, I will not be finishing the summery for some time, it is taking longer to go through the new batch of M.I.C.'s. then I thought. There is one point I would like to clear up before I can finish it anyway and that is how much of the front line did the 4/k.R.R.C. withdraw from, I know they were shelled out of the trench that connected them to the PPCLI on hill 50 but I am had sure about the rest of their line. I know the R.B. sent men up to their support line but I have not found any mention of the 4/K.R.R.C. retiring from the rest of their front. If there are is any one out there interested in the 4/K.R.R.C. and have info. on the 8th of May, I would be very interested and I would guess Garth and Andy would be too.

Annette

[Max]

Hello Garth and Annette

I supose Adamson had a view, like I do, of what censorship should be about. If the letters were giving away positions and situations then thats a no no, describing the privations of the men and the horror that they are going through, in my view is fine.

Annette

I would love to know how many German guns were actually layed on the section of front held by the 83rd and 80th Brigades, it sounds like it was a real storm. I suppose that you know you are famous when a battery of enemy artillery is chasing you up communication trenches!!!

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Andy

The two K.S.L.I. runners were in the open, CT 's were few at that time plus it would have took too long to go be CT.

Annette