Red Lodge & Dead Mans Bottom

[Max]

Hello Everyone

Does anyone know the exact whereabouts of Red Lodge (just south of Frezenberg I think) and Dead Mans Bottom (Close to Bellewaarde Lake or Chateau)

Thanks

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Andy

Dead Man Bottom is a small wood between Bellewaarde Farm and Lake Wood, just a few yards N-W of Bellewaarde Lake, I can snan map if wanted. Not sure about Red Lodge will look tomorrow if no-one else as come up with answer, I off too Hockey training now.

Annette

[Max]

Hello Annette,

Thanks for that.

A scanned map would be super....jolly hockey sticks and all that.

Andy

[CROONAERT]

Andy.

Red Lodge.... (towards the top,left on this image)

Dave.

[Max]

Hello Dave

Thanks very much. Spot on.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Dead mans Bottom is near the number 12.

Regards

Annette

[Max]

Thankyou very much Annette

I wasn't expecting it to be that close to the lake. The fact that you have managed to squeeze Westhoek onto the image has really allowed me to put things in perspective in what can be a very confusing area of the battlefield.

Thanks again

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

That no problem Andy, glad I was of help.

I have seen in some of you posts that you have mentioned the 27th Div., can I ask what is your interest. It may be that we can share info., I am working on the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Shropshires, and the 2nd were in 80th Bde., I have the Battalions war diary but I am at present working on the 1st Batt. but can stop and go over to the 2nd (I have alread done a little basic work on the 2nds involvement in battle of Ypres).

Annette

[Max]

Hello Annette

My main interest is the 83rd Brigade, 28th Div and the actions East of Ypres in May 1915. Of course to understand the part played by one unit you have to study the actions of the others in the area.

The line held by the 83rd Bde on 8th May and the touch it tried to maintain with 80th Bde is key to my trying to understand the action of that and later days. The line in that part of the Salient is meandering to say the least and I am trying to get a grip of the ground before I visit on May 8th this year. I will be taking lots of photos of the 83rd and 80th Brigade areas so if you have any requests just let me know.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Andy

The fighting was very confused about the junction of both Brigades and any info you can supply on postion of 1/KOYLI and 3/Mons throughout the day would be very helpful. The PPCLI throught that 1/KOYLI had withdrawn but offical History say they were still holding their line by nightfull and ordered back to GHQ line some time after 1pm. Because the PPCLI had earlier reported that the 1/KOYLI and Mons had retired the 2/K.S.L.I. were ordered to hold line from Bellewaarde Farm to the Railway, I am confused if K.S.L.I. were part of front line at this time, once the KOYLI had retire to GHQ line the KSLI must then have become front line (during early hours of 9th).

Annette

[Max]

Annette

Please find attached a narrative extracted from papers found with the 3/Mons diary at the PRO. It describes the action of both Battalions of Monmouths involved in the fighting in the early part of May. The part played by B Coy, 3/Mons is explained in great detail and the positions held by both the 1/KOYLI and B Coy in relation to the PPCLI is thoroughly described (of course when I get to the spot it will be completely unrecognisable). The 3/Mons seem rightly proud of the efforts that they made that day but Ingham Brooke, CO of 1/KOYLI, is strangely quiet in a report he sent to 28th Div HQ, not mentioning the part played by Capt. Mallinson and 2 Coys of his Regt.

After reading the report can you identify the positions on the map?

Andy

monmouths.doc

[Annette Burgoyne]

That looks very useful Andy, it will help paint a clearer picture for me. Have you seen PPCLI war diary entry for the 8th May or Offical History, if you have not and what copies let me know.

Have a good trip when you go, I hope to look over same area one day.

Thanks

Annette

[Max]

Hello Annette

I have a copy of the PPCLI diary for the day, but thanks for the offer.

Using the image that Dave posted I have managed to merge it into a modern map of the area.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Its good how your have merge the two maps very useful for your visit.

[CROONAERT]

Andy.

In response to your email, here's the area to the north of the image I supplied earlier...

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...and this shows the area of Red Lodge to Dead Man's Bottom....

(By the way, the maps I've supplied are all 1917)

[CROONAERT]

...and, finally, this is the situation on May 8th 1915, according to the Official History...

Dave.

[Max]

Dave, thankyou very much.

I owe you and Annette a pint when I bump into you.

Andy

[mordac]

Hi Annette and Andy:

This is an interesting thread. I've reread the PPCLI's history of this event half a dozen times and still find the events confusing. Can either of you provide me with any information from the KOYLI's history covering May 1915? Thanks.

Andy - Thanks for uploading the Monmouths document. It's given me a new perspective on Frezenberg. I hope to visit the area in October.

Annette - Hockey training?? You've got ice rinks in Shropshire? What position do you play?

Garth

[Max]

This is an interesting thread. I've reread the PPCLI's history of this event half a dozen times and still find the events confusing. Can either of you provide me with any information from the KOYLI's history covering May 1915?

Hello Garth

For whatever reason the Regimental history skates over the events on and around the 8th May. The author of the history (Bond) was the CO of 2/KOYLI and seems to have an aversion to mentioning the other regular Battalion in anything else other than passing terms. This is very annoying really as Edmunds in the Official History states that the stand made by Mallinson and elements of 1/KOYLI and B Coy 3/Monmouth stood out as being "among the historic episodes of the War." I have searched high and low and the only reasonably informative narrative of events from the KOYLI and Monmouth point of view is that given in the document already posted.

The lack of official documentation may explain why the KOYLI and Monmouths have not received the level of recognition that the PPCLI have (not in anyway denigrating their efforts) even though it was the Pats who retired to their support trench and exposed the KOYLIs right flank and in effect left them out in front of the whole British army. Proper recognition is also not given to other regiments, especially on the left flank of the 28th Divisional area who did not budge an inch and as a consequence were annihilated.

I have been toying with the idea of writing a record of the events of 4th to 13th May involving 4th, 27th and 28th Divs as “their stories must be told “, but the scale of the task is very intimidating, and besides, I don’t think I have the talent to complete such a task to my own exacting standards.

I have attached the report of OC 1/KOYLI for the events of 8th May. You will notice there is lots of “I did” and not much of anything else.

Andy

brookerep.doc

[mordac]

Hi Andy:

Thanks for uploading Major Brooke's report. I've had a quick read at the document and will spend some time comparing his report to the Monmouths and PPCLI records.

The PPCLI history devoted 12 pages to May 8. Pages 66 and 67 are an explanation on how the PPCLI's left flank was exposed. If you haven't seen this information, please let me know and I'll type it up as a Word document or PDF and post it.

Thanks again.

Garth

[Max]

Hello Garth

I've got the PPCLI war diary for the period and it is much more detailed than most. I think the problem of maintaining touch on the left flank was exacerbated by the fact that the Brigade boundary was actually a road, so there doesn't appear to have been any physical contact as such. My trip in May will allow me to look at and asses the ground as this may well have contributed to the situation.

I haven't read the PPCLI history but would be interested in doing so but, please, don't go to all that effort on my behalf.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Garth do you mind sending me pages of PPCLI history devoted 12 to May 8. If I have time over weekend I will go through suff I have on 2nd K.S.L.I. for May 8th to 9th, and send it to both you and Andy, every little scrap of info. helps.

Garth I have a copy of a diary of a 2/K.S.L.I. chap, he mentions the PPCLI several times (his entries are a bit out of context because I am sure he wrote his diary up several days after the battle of Ypres had finished but he was a signaler so would have know more then most of what was going on), do you what the extacts that mention PPCLI.

By the Garth I play field Hockey, I went ice-skating once and spent most of my time on my ass

One last thing that as entered my head several time when trying to compare PPCLI account with Official History and that is is OH correct because the PPCLI had thought that Mons and KOYLI had retired leaving their left flank exposed, sorry Andy you may not agree but it should be looked into. after all you say you self that Ingham Brooke is strangeley quiet in a report he sent to 28th Div. HQ (but then thinking again that could be down to fact that he was wounded ?)

Annette

[Max]

One last thing that as entered my head several time when trying to compare PPCLI account with Official History and that is is OH correct because the PPCLI had thought that Mons and KOYLI had retired leaving their left flank exposed, sorry Andy you may not agree but it should be looked into. after all you say you self that Ingham Brooke is strangeley quiet in a report he sent to 28th Div. HQ (but then thinking again that could be down to fact that he was wounded ?)

Hello Annette

You are quite right when you say that every scrap of info helps, it certainly does and I am hungry for anything that is offered.

You are also right when you say that the evidence requires further scrutiny. No two versions of the events of that day fit perfectly with each other, but this can only be expected when things are reported in microcosm. It may be useful to see what was actually said in the 80th Bde and PPCLI diary about the retirement of KOYLI/Mons and how this impacted on PPCLI.

80th Bde War Diary

“9.a.m. The trench on hill 50 forming the junction of the 4/KRR and PPCLI had been rendered untenable and part of it was occupied by the enemy.”

“At 9.50.a.m. OC 4th Rifle Bde sent a message saying it was reported that the 4/KRR were retiring. The 4th Rifle Bde was ordered to support the 4th KRR if required.”

This demonstrates that the right flank of Pats was, at this time, in great danger.

“9.50.a.m. OC KSLI reported a good many of the KOYLI (the Battn of the 83rd Bde on left of PPCLI) coming back – several of them stated that the whole line was retiring.”

These were men from the 2 Coys on the left of the Battalion with touch with the main body (3 Coys) of 3/Mons.

“At 10.10.a.m. OC KSLI reported that Col. BROOKE, KOYLI had come in and stated MONMOUTH REGT on his left had given way and the remains of his battalion had been forced to retire.”

I will not hide my dislike of this man. In all reports I have read he appears to be cold with no real feel for his men. His knowledge of the disposition of his men at the time has to be called into question as he appears not to know the fate of at least one and maybe two of his Coys. He had made the decision to retire before he was wounded but does not appear to have made any effort to contact his two right companies informing them of the withdrawal..

PPCLI War Diary

“9.30.a.m. was in communication with officer of KOYLI on our left and 4th Rifle Brigade on our right, both suffering heavy casualties from enfilade fire.”

At 9.30 touch was intact with the right of 1/KOYLI. This was about the same time that OC KSLI was reporting that elements of 1/KOYLI were retiring.

“10.30.a.m. Our left fire trench (right half) suffered severely & trench was blown in and machine gun put out of action. Sgt Scott and few men withdrew to communication trench and held it until it was blown in.”

It seems to me that it is at this point that the PPCLI lose touch with the 1/KOYLI (whether they knew it or not), on their left, who were still in their front line trenches.

“4.p.m. Made tour of support trenches and found we were out of touch with Regt on our left, a gap of fifty yards was unoccupied and placed 8 men in this gap to inform me of happenings there.”.

No mention is made regarding the exposure of his left flank until this point. Having retired to the support trenches the PPCLI are unlikely to have been able to gain touch with anyone on the left as the 1/KOYLI were supposedly still in the forward trenches and B Coy, 3/Mons had advanced from support to reinforce the KOYLI.

“Shortly afterwards I was informed that Monmouth Regt on left 1/KOYLI had withdrawn to trenches 300 yards in rear and about 5.30. was informed that KOYLI had also withdrawn to same line of trenches”

This snippet from the diary is quite confusing. It mentions that the Monmouth Regt on LEFT of 1/KOYLI had retired. Does he mean the remnants of B Coy or the men of the main body of Mons who were stationed on the left of the KOYLI at the onset of battle and who had reportedly retired at approx 10.a.m. Similarly are the KOYLI who retired Mallinsons command or the main body who again fell back at 10.a.m. I am almost convinced that the men that they can see are those who retired earlier in the day as when Mallinsons men did fall back it was to the GHQ line, via 4/Rifle Brigade HQ, almost 1200 yards in rear and not the 300 hundred as reported here. The Monmouths narrative states that when they retired they “……filed out of the right end of the trench and made for 4/RB HQ and then to GHQ line over 1000 yards in rear.” . The Rifle Brigade diary would be worth checking to verify this.

I have tried without any success to locate any papers written by Mallinson. His file at the PRO has been “filtered” and is unavailable.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Andy I am not going to reply in detail yet as I've only quickly read you text, I'll past into publisher (I do not like word) and print it out so that I can site down and take me time in reading it.

But here is my ten pence worth after a quick look

This snippet from the diary is quite confusing. It mentions that the Monmouth Regt on LEFT of 1/KOYLI had retired. Does he mean the remnants of B Coy or the men of the main body of Mons who were stationed on the left of the KOYLI

I took to mean the main body of Mons between Frezenberg and railway line and NOT B Coy.

The Monmouths narrative states that when they retired they “……filed out of the right end of the trench and made for 4/RB HQ and then to GHQ line over 1000 yards in rear.” . The Rifle Brigade diary would be worth checking to verify this.

Yes a look at 4/RB diary is need also a look at 3/K.R.R.C. diary to see if it makes any mention of whereabouts of line taken over from PPCLI, wheather its original front line or support line or parts of both. The Pats diary records that 3/KRRC helped bury dead that were in the support line & CT but records that it was impossible to attemp to reach the fire trenches. Now does that mean that fire was not occupied by 3/KRRC or that it was too risky to try and bury dead in front line (from what I know of war it would be madness to try and bury dead in or near fire line).

Annette