4-digit TF Numbers

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Although you see East Yorks, as well as NF marked on the MIC's of those individuals last named nearly all of those who were numbered from 201975 through to 202137(over 150), had originated from Norfolk, with a smaller number from Northants & London and all had previously been Norfolk Territorials. I have a lovely named photo at home showing a Sgt of the Norfolk Regt, but on the reverse he's named his unit as 2/7th NF.

This is where both the MIC's and Medal Rolls let us down as home units are almost never shown, unless you arrive on foreign soil still badged and documented as coming from a home unit. Only databases with large groupings show patterns emerging and to me thats what's really fascinating about this numbering lark, it uncovers the hidden realities of where your men are actually coming from.

Jim,

I'd love to have a look at some of your sheets to have a look at whats going on with your lads. Sadly I don't have access to Ancestry, but believe Kate has and she's done a lot of work with 6th NF and she may have uncovered some similarities. She was kind enough to send me some TF papers with our Supernumary Company anomalies on them i.e additional four figure numbers, which were well out of sequence from original battalion members. She also sent other papers which were to the same lads - one set being their original Volunteer Attestation forms and their new TF Attestation papers and what was obvious among them was that all the TF attestation's bore the same date of enlistment, whereas in reality these lads had enlisted at different times as Volunteers. Penned in the margins of the TF papers was "service reckons from" or words to that effect.

[purley]

Graham

Thanks to you I have spent two days trawling though our medal rolls and picked up a bit more NF & RBR material which you may or may not have

CROSSLEY - John NF2101&200600, RB 227067

RIPLEY - William Brewis NF 1945&200513 RB 227087

IONS - Thomas NF 1151 & 200189 RB 227078

JACKSON - John NF 1149 & 200187 RB 227080

TEASDALE - Obediah NF 1049/200143 RB 227092

WOODING - George NF 1/23679 RB 37429

DUNNINGTON - Thomas NF 5/203602 RB 50804

TAYLOR - John W NF 75678, RB 50781, Army 5329370

HEATON - Joseph H NF 4/58334 RB 50763

YARDLEY - Walter NF 4/54857 RB 50786

SAINT - NF 2698 & 200852 RB 227091

HOPPER - Mathew NF 2132 & 200616 RB 227075

GARDINER - John RAMC 126600, NF 2/63320 RB 54306

SAMBRIDGE Alexander DLI 15/43348, NF 6/1443 RB 50795 - died 8/10/1918

DALEY Joseph W NF 23/46116 RB 50759

MAITLAND - Richard NF 23/899 RB 50767

HOWARD - Walter Arthur - served in 2/Northants in Boer War, 2/King Edwards Horse 68, NF 4/61235, RB 39814, Army 532818, deserted 30/10/17, died 11/3/1921 aged 49 - born Great Yarmouth - finished up a CSM - also served in the Cheshires

CLAYTON George M NF 66499, RB 55372, Army 5329834

BLACKBURN James NF 1275 & 200238, RB 227062

COLE Joseph W - NF 75855, RB 50755, Army 5329369

WALKER Arthur - ASC T3/27689, NF 39724, RB 50782

PARKER Henry - RAMC 78881 NF 63318, RB 54308

TASH Ernest G RAMC 70212, NF 7/63312, RB 42479

GEORGE - Alfred RAMC 130302, NF 63322 RB 42477

regards

John

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Thanks very much and I'll copy and paste to my Office programme so that I can go through them at my leisure. As it is I've accounted for all of my transfers to you that are found on SDGW, and those I found in the AVL's, which had both NF & R.Berks numbers, the latter being hand written and added at a later date.

Did find one that we don't seem to have accounted for;-

293155 Pte Alfred Johnson fmly R.Berks(3642)

2101(200600) Pte John Crossley lived 46 High Row, Addison Colliery - RB(227067)

I'll keep checking for matches and additional information.

Graham

[Ken Lees]

... As far as I can ascertain the lists for renumbering were drawn up around August 1916 and included all those still on their Territorial Association active list at that time. Generally those who had died or were presumed dead were not included. The scheme was supposed to come into effect in Jan 1917 but very few used their new numbers until March or April. In any case the number 200000 would not have been used. The gaps are generally because noone has been able to make the linkage for men who died in the latter part of 1916 or who transferred to a regular or service battalion. - I suspect mainly the latter as the CWGC and bureaucracy tended to use the 6 figure number whether or not the man was even aware of it before he died. Another reason is that if the man transferred to another regiment and got his victory medal with his new regiment his former regimental numbers would not be included on the medal card unless he had earned a medal with them. The medal cards are records of entitlement to medals not records of service.

John,

This is fascinating and has caused me to have a further look at my database.

Regarding the lists being drawn up around August 1916, I don't think this was the case in the 55th (West Lancashire) Division. I looked at those killed after August and chose the date 25/09/16 as there was a high number that day in the 1/9th King's.

43 NCOs and Men were killed, of whom 16 were issued with 6-digit numbers in the correct sequence. Of these, only 2 have a known grave, one of which is clearly a battlefield clearance late burial. So, the 16 may have still been officially missing when the 6-digit numbers were drawn up.

A further 10 died of wounds between 26/09/16 and 23/10/16 and none have a 6-digit number.

There were only 5 deaths between 23/10/16 and the end of the year, none of whom had 6-digit numbers.

The first deaths (apart from those presumably 'missing' from the Sept.1916 battle) who had a 6-digit number date from 4th February, 1917 and all subsequent deaths had a 6-digit number.

This suggests to me that the lists for the 6-digit numbers were drawn up much later than August 1916, probably in late January or early February, 1917. I have not seen any documentary evidence to support this, though.

The battalion war diary mentions the men being issued with their new numbers (in accrodance with ACI 2414 of 1916) on 10th March, 1917.

[Graham Stewart]

Ken,

Thanks for your input and your views from the revision of your database. Basically you're finding the same as myself i.e. TF MIA's from late 1916 battles are not being "struck of strength", as there is no first hand evidence to show these men are actually killed. This accounts for references in ACI's and TF Instructions not to regard a man as dead unless evidence proves otherwise.

The process itself for declaring a man 'killed' when MIA, I believe was quite lenghty, including searches of enemy POW camps and hospitals as well as asking for statements of surviving colleagues as to what happend to the inidividual. This is where the need for the 'Enquiry List' published by the Red Cross sprang from even during the early days of the War and you do notice the difference in the earlier and later publications that were produced.

Anyone producing a database will find these a 'must have' as they often record platoon and company at the time of loss. Also one of your area hospitals in Lancashire was devoted to TF casualties and many NF(TF) were sent there after Alnwick Camp Hospital was closed. The records of these men survive in one of your local archives, but I can't remember which one.

[sandyford]

Graham

In another thread the (new?) reprints of quite a few Red Cross enquiry lists have been mentioned.

I only have the 1917 list.

Yet another set for the wish list, although I know you have many of the lists already.

Ken & John

The practicalities of issuing the 6 figure numbers must have been considerable - new identity discs, pay identities etc, It would have been interesting to know whether the men were issued with the discs on the day they had to begin using them and how the old discs were collected and destroyed.

kate

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Kate,

Which thread would it be as I've had a look around and can't find any reference to Enquiry Lists?

[purley]

Another anomaly I have just come acroos is the case of Pte T H Hughes from Lower Basford who was formerly with the 7th North Staffordshires. He was transferred, on the 7th July 1919, along with 242 of his comrades, to the 7th Royal Berks at Kodjori Camp in Georgia. They were allocated Royal Berks numbers between 54641 and 54894. Hughes was drowned at Haida Pasha on the 28th September 1919 but the War Diary quoted his North Staffs number 27729 as if he were a Royal Berks man and the CWGC records this on his grave at Haida Pasha Cemetery. It would seem that no-one on the spot had any idea of the new numbers so the earlier question as to how were new numbers communicated get even more mysterious.

[Graham Stewart]

John,

You may have a case here where they are originally 'attached' before officially transferred. A similar situation occurs in the War Diary of the 20th NF, shortly after 1st July 1916, where you find both TF and Special Reservists in the unit, who are becoming casualties and their original details are recorded as such by the CWGC.

Within the month however they are all renumbered with a five figure number beginning with 3**** and their original numbers disappear. The men are moving quicker than their new numbers and you find that the numbers are being issued by the officer i/c records at the Depot, who telegrams them to the Base Depot, where they should have been issued. Alas though the lads haven't been there 2minutes and they're on their way to the front line and the numbers do eventually catch them up, but not after some have already become casualties.

Another example I found was a draft from the 2/7th NF who were making their way to 50th Div. They never reached the Division and were diverted to a York & Lancs service battalion, being again attached and becoming casualties with them, before eventually being absorbed into the battalion and being renumbered with five figure Y&L numbers. They're possibly the only example of second line NF(TF) whom I've ever found as casualties, that are recorded as such.

[sandyford]

Graham

Can't find the thread about the Red Cross lists, but it was telling us about the N & M Press issues. There were 2 for 1918 Oct. & Dec, I think, which were the most expensive and quite a lot for 1915 & 1916.

Kate