4-digit TF Numbers

[Ken Lees]

Hi Kate,

I think the drift is still relevant to the whole subject and I continue to learn from other examples.

I agree with you that the order on the MICs cannot be accepted as being chronologically accurate. Having looked at hundreds of cards over the last few weeks I have found obvious non-chronoligical sequences and many with the entries numbered, e.g. 1, 4, 3, 2 reading down the list of entries.

Ken

[Graham Stewart]

Saw this interesting post and thought I would add to it.

The reason for gaps appearing the new six figure numbering system is simply because that not all of your territorials were serving abroad. Many pre-1914 didn't take the option of serving overseas for whatever reason and so they served within in 2nd or 3rd Line TF Battalions. On the reorgansation of the TF and the formation of the Reserve Battalions TF all of these men would have been transferred acrosss and renumbered along with the survivors of the first line battalion.

Enlistment date would have taken seniority and new numbers would have also been issued to those who were TF POW's and MIA's, who also previously had four figure numbers. With this latter case you find men who have been dead for some six months prior to the issue of the new numbers, but since their death cannot be substantiated, they're given a new six figure number. The new six figure numbers themselves were given to the battalion as a whole and not split between those serving at home or abroad.

As an example of the first 20 new six figure numbers for the 4th battalion i.e. 200000 - 200020, only the numbers 200000; 200001; 200003; 200011; 200020 remain unaccounted for. While of the remaining fifteen that have been accounted for only five are known to have served overseas with the 1/4th Bn, the remainder seeming to have served at home.

Sadly the books which would have given you the precise numbering details i.e. the Part II Order Books have disappeared, although those for the NF have survived, but I have only glimpsed through them.

[purley]

Saw this interesting post and thought I would add to it.

The reason for gaps appearing the new six figure numbering system is simply because that not all of your territorials were serving abroad. Many pre-1914 didn't take the option of serving overseas for whatever reason and so they served within in 2nd or 3rd Line TF Battalions. On the reorgansation of the TF and the formation of the Reserve Battalions TF all of these men would have been transferred acrosss and renumbered along with the survivors of the first line battalion.

Enlistment date would have taken seniority and new numbers would have also been issued to those who were TF POW's and MIA's, who also previously had four figure numbers. With this latter case you find men who have been dead for some six months prior to the issue of the new numbers, but since their death cannot be substantiated, they're given a new six figure number. The new six figure numbers themselves were given to the battalion as a whole and not split between those serving at home or abroad.

As an example of the first 20 new six figure numbers for the 4th battalion i.e. 200000 - 200020, only the numbers 200000; 200001; 200003; 200011; 200020 remain unaccounted for. While of the remaining fifteen that have been accounted for only five are known to have served overseas with the 1/4th Bn, the remainder seeming to have served at home.

Sorry Graham but it was nothing at all to do with whether or not they had signed the overseas declaration other than many men who hadn't didnt get a star. Neither was it to do with a Territorial reorganisation and they didn't have to transfer across. After the Derby Act the overseas declaration was superfluous. They should all have got War and Victory medals. As far as I can ascertain the lists for renumbering were drawn up around August 1916 and included all those still on their Territorial Association active list at that time. Generally those who had died or were presumed dead were not included. The scheme was supposed to come into effect in Jan 1917 but very few used their new numbers until March or April. In any case the number 200000 would not have been used. The gaps are generally because noone has been able to make the linkage for men who died in the latter part of 1916 or who transferred to a regular or service battalion. - I suspect mainly the latter as the CWGC and bureaucracy tended to use the 6 figure number whether or not the man was even aware of it before he died. Another reason is that if the man transferred to another regiment and got his victory medal with his new regiment his former regimental numbers would not be included on the medal card unless he had earned a medal with them. The medal cards are records of entitlement to medals not records of service.

regards

John

[sandyford]

John

What is the source for the information that the 6 figure renumbering lists were drawn up in August 1916?

Example from 6th N.F. of a soldier not discharged until October 1916 and yet not renumbered. There is only 1 six figure number gap where there were once 10 four-figure numbered soldiers

265674 Renwick 6/3399

265675 Scott 6/3419

265676 Nesbitt 6/3421

265677

265678 King 6/3424

265679

265680 Bruce 6/3434

265681 Milburn 6/3436

I have the details of a soldier with the 4 figure number 6/3427 who was wounded in April 1915 and then discharged in October 1916. He was not given a 6 figure number nor was a gap left.

We had an earlier thread on the forum about re-numbering, where we discussed soldiers, date of death in 1916 and names on CWGC memorials, who had been renumbered in 1917 because they were still regarded as missing.

Kate

I know that many of the 6 figure numbers beside which I personally have no soldier's details are because I have not been able to locate the soldier.

Many of these gaps in my own details are because the soldier did not serve overseas and so is not appearing yet on MIC cards and has no service or pension records still available in the resources I am using.

The number sequence was definitely issued across the whole battalion no matter the line or whether they served overseas or not but the Territorials did have the option to volunteer for overseas service.

[purley]

Sorry Graham but it was nothing at all to do with whether or not they had signed the overseas declaration other than many men who hadn't didnt get a star. Neither was it to do with a Territorial reorganisation and they didn't have to transfer across. After the Derby Act the overseas declaration was superfluous. They should all have got War and Victory medals. As far as I can ascertain the lists for renumbering were drawn up around August 1916 and included all those still on their Territorial Association active list at that time. Generally those who had died or were presumed dead were not included. The scheme was supposed to come into effect in Jan 1917 but very few used their new numbers until March or April. In any case the number 200000 would not have been used. The gaps are generally because noone has been able to make the linkage for men who died in the latter part of 1916 or who transferred to a regular or service battalion. - I suspect mainly the latter as the CWGC and bureaucracy tended to use the 6 figure number whether or not the man was even aware of it before he died. Another reason is that if the man transferred to another regiment and got his victory medal with his new regiment his former regimental numbers would not be included on the medal card unless he had earned a medal with them. The medal cards are records of entitlement to medals not records of service.

regards

John

John

I will list all the Royal Berks 4th Bn men with 6 figure numbers who were discharged prior to 1917

T2 T1 surname xnames dod dodch

200180 1866 Simmons Edward 19150330

200667 2821 Burnham Albert Frederick James 19160628 19150402

202398 1454 Waizeneker Theodore Arthur 19151109

202394 1232 Aldworth Alfred 19160216

202984 20288 Gardner Herbert A 19160302

201074 Wicks James Harold 19160305

202353 107 Beasley Ernest Arthur 19160406

202396 206 Blackwood Ernest George 19160406

202402 340 Cocking John Henry Albert 19181101 19160406

202395 522 Viner William Henry 19160406

202404 567 Newell William Henry 19160406

203157 Wale Joseph William 19160428

202380 1576 Cooper Arthur Albert 19160501

201529 5083 Elbrow Ambrose James 19160516 19160516

200706 2881 Harvey Ernest Edward 19160516 19160516

201293 3968 Watts William Stephen Joseph19160713 19160713

200528 2609 Beard Leslie Ernest John 19160713 19160713

201246 3792 Tallant Arthur Evan 19160713 19160713

200994 3313 Sumner Leonard 19160713 19160713

200361 2293 Mulford Reginald Cyril Arthur 19160723 19160723

200412 2409 Attride George James 19160723 19160723

201568 5147 Jones Thomas Henry 19160723 19160723

201455 4880 King Henry Amos 19160723 19160723

200621 2752 Saunders Ernest Jesse 19160721 19160723

200160 1807 Dean Herbert Sidney 19160723 19160723

200834 3078 Langford Albert Brown 19160814 19160814

200291 2152 Long Dennis 19160814 19160814

200242 2034 Mills George 19160814 19160814

200054 1159 Turner Frank 19160814 19160814

202023 Guy John Frederick 19160814 19160814

201412 Gould Arthur 19160814 19160814

201856 Butler George Henry 19160814 19160814

200960 3267 Buxton William 19160814 19160814

201565 5142 Taft John 19160814 19160814

201898 5665 Tanner Edward Stanley 19160814 19160814

200175 1855 Smith Alfred George 19160816 19160816

200813 3042 Hands William Thomas 19160827 19160827

202068 5894 Chapman William John 19160827 19160827

201548 5114 Collis Albert 19160827 19160827

200617 2747 Barrett Albert Alfred 19160827 19160827

200896 3184 Snow Joseph Mark 19160827 19160827

201474 4930 Pearce William Arthur 19160827 19160827

200246 2476 Weaving Robert Valentine 19160827 19160827

201477 4934 Annetts Percival William 19160827 19160827

202918 20220 Miles C H 19161117

200548 2639 Turner John 19161116 19161118

201864 3382 Hunt Arthur 19161119 19161119

203808 20614 Warren Arthur 19161220

203873 Thatcher Alfred 19161220

203839 20645 Williamson W J A 19161220

203829 20635 Kurton Charles 19161220

203823 20629 Condon W J 19161220

203820 20626 Williams S L 19161220

203834 20640 Schofield W 19161220

203810 20616 Sturgess William George 19161220

203844 20650 Underwood W E 19161220

Sorry the list has got a bit garbled as I copied it directly out of my database. The last column is the date of discharge YYYYMMDD and the previous one is the date of death where applicable. The 20xxx old numbers are men who transferred from the other Royal Berks battalions to the Territorials.

The crucial question is not what happened but what the secretary of the Territorial Association knew at the time or thought he knew what would happen in the near future, for example if a man was badly injured and unlikely to be destined other than for discharge he would not be included. I deduced the date of compilation as around July/August 1916 from the evidence you see above, working on the basis that it would take about 3-4 weeks for the list of dead from the 23rd July to have filtered through. I have not investigated the earlier discharges but suspect it was lost paperwork for the most part although a few are men up for a Commission.

regards

John

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Numbers wouldn't be issued to men who weren't there. The TFA's were given the block numbers, but the numbers themselves were issued by officers i/c regimental records, not the TFA and therefore only those who were still serving at that time would have been given a new six figure number and this would include Home Service personnel.

Having seen the 4th(Reserve)Bn Part II Order Book I can assure you this contains the numbers of the old units of men being transferred in from and the new six figure number they're receiving in the NF. They also recorded the six figure numbers of those being transferred out and to which units they were going.

Again your presumption that the GWF used the number for those TF pesonnel that were missing prior to the issue of the new numbers, but whose death cannot be substantiated is also incorrect, as the GWGC had no access to those numbers. The details coming from the regiments themselves, which in turn came from the mens records, which were still being held. There was even an ACI carried over into TFA Instructions stating that "a man missing should not be presumed dead". The same ruling would apply to POW's, they would be renumbered, as they're still serving.

The six figure numbers were issued to both those at home and overseas and it's the non-overseas lads which create the big gaps. These can be filled with the use of the Silver War Badge Lists/MIC's; Absent Voters Lists and Part II Orders(if you can get your hands on them). The problem with the SWB Roll is that it only includes 'discharged' men and not TF personnel who continued to serve at home with a six figure number, as a result only the discharged are included in the MIC.

TF men who serve at home and not overseas, are not included in the Medal Rolls either and as a result, hundreds will be missed from any list you create, unless you have access to other sources i.e.Nominal Rolls, AVL's or Part II Orders. I've pulled loads from the AVL's which do not appear in the Medal Rolls or SWB Rolls who in most cases are serving with the Reserve Battalion or a TF Depot, which for the most part is the HQ of the old TF Battalion.

Corps such as the Labour Corps do not include a mans pre-fix for transferred TF personnel's four figure number, but will include any six figure numbers i.e. 200007 Pte Thomas Irving formerly 4th Bn transferred to Labour Corps(501674) - no other numbers added apart from the six figure number. From this I can only presume he never served overseas prior to issue of the six figure number.

The Medal Index Cards themselves show entitlement to medals and SWB's, but the details recorded for those awarded medals are for the unit that you first served overseas with and subsequent overseas units. The name and number which appear on your Medal are the first unit and not any subsequent units. Doesn't matter who you were serving with on 11th November 1918, it's the first unit served overseas with thats on the rim.*

However the MIC's also inlcude thousands of SWB men who never served overseas, so technically speaking shouldn't be called "Medal Index Cards". The job of the MIC was to direct you to the Medal Roll Sheets in the Medal Roll Book.

Medal Rolls include both the four figure and six figure numbers for TF personnel, but not if they were discharged prior to the introduction of the new six figure numbers. So why the gaps??? as simple as not serving overseas and this applies to all of your numbers which don't include transfers. Thousands of men were serving with Reserve units who were unfit for service overseas, but fit for Garrison duties only and these are your missing links. TF Home Service personnel came under the same ACI's as their Imperial Service colleagues when it came to numbering.

To-date I've found nearly 5000 six figure numbers for the NF across the four TF battalions and quite a lot of those numbers, which come from alternative sources, cannot be traced through the normal means at our disposal.

Graham.

PS

The Northumberland and DLI also had a curious situation wherbye the Depot at Fenham was cleared of all personnel who were then transferred to the Royal Naval Division, but even here some their old NF/DLI numbers can still be found, although none of these men served overseas with their regiments.

*Note - A veteran complained bitterly to me about the fact that his medal contained his York & Lancs details, although he never served with them overseas. He was in a Y&L Reserve Bn and sent on a draft to France 3/7/1916. He was renumbered the same day at the Base Depot in the NF and fought with them throughout the War and expected to see NF on his medals at the end, he was bitterly disappointed that they weren't.

[Graham Stewart]

Have just caught the list you've produced regarding the R.Berks 1916 discharges and can say that this was not effective with the NF. No 1916 TF discharges receive a six figure number, only their four figure nummbers are recorded.

It appear's to me that as the SWB list's couldn't have been produced until after the six figure numbers were issued in 1917 and therefore the Records Centre must have been given lists long after the men had gone, which is what you were saying. So the officer i/c TF records must have updated the records while still in his possession, before handing them to the Records Centre. However this is not universal and may only apply to the R.Berks or all units in your command.

[purley]

Graham

will have to deal with your points in little bits.

The officer i/c regimental records for the 4th Royal Berks was a Major Porter who was also the secretary of the TFA

Just log into the CWGC site and put in ANNETTS P W died 1916 You will see that even though he died in August 1916 and would have known nothing of his new TF number the CWGC record him under 201477 rather than his number at the time of 4934. Dont forget the CWGC was not formed as the IWGC after the war and had access to all the records.

One of the problems with our TF was that all the records were kept within the TF and spirited away after the war so are not in the regimental records but there are lots of sources that have re-emerged and records in local papers, libraries, private hands, etc as well as the medal rolls, TFM, W&V, star, SWB etc and SDGW/CWGC.

As I said in a previous post it is what the TFA Secretary knew or thought he knew that matters, not what actually happened or what the rules might or might not have been. The battalions in the field continued to use the old numbers well into March 1917 and the entry for 21st April is the first use in the war diary of the 1st/4th Royal Berks for 6 figure numbers. - see www.the wardrobe.org.uk and look at the diary. - back at home the TFA used the lists they had prepared in August 1916.

'missing' changed to 'presumed dead' after a year.

regards

John

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Our larger posts must have crossed hence my instant reply. I now see what you're saying, but you have to understand this appears to be a problem within the R.Berkshires and not within the TF as a whole.

The TFA's were a governing body of those battalions under them and they implimented War Office directives, but the battalions themselves are administered as per TF Regulations and each of your TF battalions would have had a officer i/c records. As you're probably aware each man had two sets of records, one went with him and a set set remained at HQ. The officer i/c records role was to keep those records up to-date and as the war progressed Depot had large staffs, the bulk of them women dealing with records.

Now to be honest I'm not familiar with the role of the Infantry Records Centres(ours was based in York), which seem to have been created during the war, and it was they who were responsible for compiling SWB Lists as seen from their unit stamp. From the list you've provided it would appear that your Infantry Records Office hasn't been given these lists of discharged R.Berks TF men, until a long time after they've left and so the carer who has been holding them in my opinion has updated them, before presenting them.

From a personal point of view you would have to look at those units within your Command to see if there are other instances of 1916 TF men being discharged with six figure numbers. As both Kate and I have stated this is not the case within the NF, nor with any other Northern Command unit that I know of. But as the R.Berks SWB lists were created in 1917, then you have to consider their TF records were being sat-on, possibly mixed up or even mislaid, you just never know.

What I do know is of a case where all of the records of a company of 18th DLI were lost and all of those within the company had to be re-attested. On top of which they lost their original '18/****' numbers and were re-issued with five figure numbers direct from the Depot. These things happen and in particular with numbering it can be how the ACI/Order is interpreted by those in charge, which can create problems for researchers.

One of lifes little mysteries it seems.

Graham.

PS

Were you aware that men from the 4th(Res)Bn, NF were transferred to the R.Berks???

[purley]

PS

Were you aware that men from the 4th(Res)Bn, NF were transferred to the R.Berks???

these are the ones I have

NF surname xnames RBR town

-995 Kent C E 29578

-995 Berry J R -5

-995 King E C 29581

-995 Haines A J 29577

-995 Cartledge H 29555

-995 Capnerhurst G 29554

-995 Beavis H 29545

-995 Tash Ernest G 42479

-995 Palmer J 29530

-7 Reading Bertram 18486

14 Robson Alfred 227088

475 Ross Adam 50772

626 Hodgson Joseph 227076

685 Watson William 50784

698 Brown Thomas 227066

960 Gibbin Harry 227074 Hexham On Tyne

1034 Callender Thomas 227069

1049 Teasdale Obediah 227092

1113 Johnston Thomas 227081

1123 Dickinson John 50757

1149 Jackson John 227080

1151 Ions Thomas 227078

1155 Dodd William 227071

1275 Blackburn James 227062 West Wylam

1288 Wanless Thomas William 227094

1328 Young Thomas 227098

1531 Pittendreigh Fred 227085

1532 Little Robert 50766

1630 Wood John 227093

1842 Wilson Herbert E 227097

1875 Robertson Lachlan 227086

1945 Ripley William Brewis 227087

1964 Robson Matthew 227089

2032 Armstrong Thomas 227060

2101 Crossley Job 227067

2132 Hopper Mathew 227075

2221 Morpeth John 227083

2269 Hunter Herbert 227077

2698 Saint Robert 227091

2739 Cheeseman Nicholas 227068

6065 McBeth George W 227084

9317 Pearson William E 50770

9508 Emmerson Fenwick 39800

12170 Russell Sholto Coventry 50775

21448 Reekie William 50774

29461 Campbell Ralph O 50803

29968 Laing George W 50812

34987 Strong Frederick Henry 50780 Cardiff

41245 Atkinson John W 50752

41322 Hambleton John 50762

41393 Williams Arthur 50783

41773 Mawson Joe H 50814

41790 Ross Kenneth 50818

42659 White C 9265

42661 Miles H E 18878

42669 Bishop W J 18538 Peppard Common

42673 Wakefield Albert 5463

42696 Fordham F 15931

42717 Butler C L 10252

42722 Griffiths D 17534 Somers Town

42771 Barker W 10435

42771 Barker William 10455

42806 Atkin D V 15527 Windsor

42819 Morris I 15543

43170 Watson John 50785 Consett

46793 Keen James W 50764

50467 Newport J 9972

50473 Knight E G 8791

51220 Nattrass William 50769

52546 Lawrence H 17195

52547 Aldridge R B 14521 Basingstoke

52551 Cannings Frank 55089

52551 Cannings Frank 5329631

52551 Cannings Frank 16762

53810 George E W 8262

59893 Bearman W H 14017

59896 Collinson A 15775

59959 Durkin James 50578

62291 Marshall P 18668 Hackney

62293 Kemble E P 17643

75647 Radford Harold D 50776

75716 Keane Patrick 50765 Gory

75872 Fitzpatrick Richard Michael 50760 Scarborough

78623 Milner Arthur 50768

78988 Ashby Stuart 50820

78991 Barker Robert 50753

91042 Huckin Albert 31644

97106 Gore Henry 50601

200337 Pittendreigh Fred 227085

200344 Campbell Alex 227070

200566 Armstrong Thomas 227060

200824 Brotherton Robert 227065

201064 Williamson James 227096

201095 Jennings Richard 227079

201133 Harrison Francis W 50809

201964 Campbell Ralph O 50803

202021 Ward Horace 227095

202060 Browne Joseph H 227061

202069 Bullimore Robert 227064

202088 Edwards John 227072

202114 Mayer Herbert 227082

202145 Mawson Joe H 50814

202210 Fox Charles R 50806 Newbury

202636 Roach William 50819

202936 Holmes James A 50810

202937 Holdroyd Frank 50808

203137 Rate Bertie 50816

204009 Bumfrey Robert W 227063

204374 Johnson Alfred 50811

207890 Godfrey Frederick 8919 Abingdon

235126 McBeth George W 227084

235977 Swain Alfred 2375 Mortimer

238018 Simpson Alexander 227090

242009 Fenwick William 50807

242223 Buglass Andrew 50754

263037 Leverett Stanley 50813

291834 Laing George W 50812

-995 means I dont know, -5 or -7 denotes an officer - I have not yet properly got to the bottom of the 227xxx numbers but they are nothing to do with territorials. They seem to have been allocated after the war to tidy up records. The Royal Berks had several such odd series including 219xxx for men who transferred in the field to the 7th Royal Berks in Salonika

would be interested in any others you might have

regards

John

[Graham Stewart]

4th Bn, NF men transferred to the R.Berkshires;-

200002 Sgt Alfred Robson - 10 Priestpopple, Hexham - R.Berks 227088

200055 Pte Joseph Hodgson - Kiln Cottages, Wardenlaw - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227076

200109 Pte Henry Gibbin - 7 Holy Island, Hexham - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227074

200139 Pte Thomas Callender - 3 Ridleys Yard, Prudhoe - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227061

200174 Pte Thomas Johnson - Manchester Square, Bellingham - R.Berks 227081

200192 Pte William Dodd - Gunnerton - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227071

200241 Pte Thomas Wm Wanless - Swan Cottage, Lambley - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227094

200373 Pte John Wood - 3 Beechgrove, Prudhoe - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227093

200458 Pte Herbert E Wilson - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227097

200474 Pte Lachlan Robertson - 5 Eilansgate, Hexham - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227086

200527 Pte Matthew Robson - Wall - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227089

200566 Pte Thomas Armstrong - 8 Oak St, Mickley - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227060

200650 Pte John Morpeth - 26 St.Wilfreds Rd, Corbridge - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227083

200824 Pte Robert Brotherton - 19 Gilesgate Bank, Hexham - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227065

200875 Pte Nicholas Cheesman - 4 Fox & Hounds Yard, Prudhoe - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227068

201064 Pte James Williamson- 25 Gilesgate Bank, Hexham - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227096

201964 Pte Ralph O Campbell - 65 Claremont St, Gateshead - R.Berks 50803

235022 Pte Herbert Hunter - Wydon Tce, Haltwhistle - 1st Bn,R.Berks 227077

Date of transfer appears to be 29/8/1918 for all 1st Bn,R.Berks transfers

Hope you have all of these.

[Graham Stewart]

Damn - beat me to it. Never mind something more to work on.

Interesting you have their four figure numbers and I their six figure ones!!!

[jim_davies]

Interesting thread.

For 4th Lincs, men killed through to early 1917 were not renumbered, except a small number of Hohenzollern Redoubt (Oct 1915) who were still considered missing.

What is interesting is that a large number of men "released for civil employment" in the summer and fall of 1915 having served in France from 1 Mar 1915, were renumbered, and have their six digit numbers on their MICS, despite never servign abroad with these numbers.

[Graham Stewart]

Quite an interesting list when put together;-

4/698 Pte Thomas Brown - wounded Aug 1915

4/1049 Pte Obediah Teasdale - gassed Aug 1915

4/1945 Pte William Brewis Ripley - wounded Aug 1915

4/2132 Pte Matthew Hopper - wounded July & Dec 1915

Some confusion over 4/14(200002) Sgt Alfred Robson as I have him as 227568 and you have him 227088

These are the same men;-

2032(200566) Pte Thomas Armstrong

1531(200337) Pte Fred Pittendreigh

6065(235126) Pte George W McBeth

You have;-

685 Pte William Watson - I have 685 Pte William Cuthbert mia 27/5/18

1532 Pte Robert Little - I have Sgt David Rocks kia 15/7/16

I'll amend my previous list with the R.Berks Battalion transferred to.

[purley]

Graham

We seem to have got somewhere with my 227xxx group. They all seem to be territorials who transferred to the 1st Royal Berks and retained their TF status whereas the ones that transferred at the same time and got 508xx numbers did not for the latter all seemed to come from other NF battalions before joining the 1st/4th and getting transferred to the 1st R Berks.

The sequence 227001-227058 were all territorials transferred from the Royal Warwicks, 227059 came from the Suffolk Regt, 227060-227098 came from the NF and 227099 from the DLI (Pte Joseph V Slack 350541)

I have accounted for them all except 227073 Sgt J Firth - is he one of yours?

my 50784 William Watson was 20/685 and not a 4th man

similarly my 50766 Robert Little was 1/1532

the 20th NF were disbanded 3/2/18 so I presume they got transferred to the 4th NF

my 50803 came from the 8th NF

The reason for me having their old numbers was because these were the numbers they earned a 1915 Star - mostly 20/4/15 but your 200875 entered France 7/9/15 and was 227068 - not 287068

most were disemboded in Jan/Feb 1919 - I can give you exact dates if you want but 227089 Robson was discharged unfit 12/12/18

227061 Joseph H Browne earned his Star as 7904 in the East Yorks

Harry Gibbin was 227074 not 227024 he entered France 21/4/15 and was killed with the R Berks 7/9/18 and buried at Vaulx Hill Cemetery - he came from 7 Holy Island Hexham on Tyne.

Herbert Hunter was 227077

Robson was 227088 as 227568 is way out of range

227066 Brown - your 4/698 was discharged 6/5/19 unfit.

I still have a few responses to your earlier posts but will look again tomorrow. There is still a lot to tease out of this TF renumbering - I have a lot of anomalies to resolve especially around territorials transferring to a regular battalion and then coming back to the 4th Bn with a new number but in no apparant order.

regards

John

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Pleased to hear that both of our lists are gaining some ground through this post and here is some more information;-

4/1113 Pte Thomas Johnson(or Johnston) - gassed June 1915 - not gassed Sept 1915 - R.Berks(227081)

4/2032 Pte Thomas Armstrong - wounded Aug 1915 - R.Berks(227060)

16/1123 Pte John Dickinson - 13 West View, Medomsley - IV Pltn,'A' Coy - shell shock Oct 1916 - R.Berks(50757)

20/685 Pte William Watson - 'C' Coy,20th Bn(AWOL 29/11/15 - 1/12/15) - R.Berks(50784)

7/1328(2901175) Pte Thomas Young - XV Pltn,'D' Coy,1/7th Bn - R.Berks(227098)

1531(200337) Pte Fred Pittendreigh - MM 11/10/1916 - R.Berks(227085)

1532 Robert Little - Newcastle - wounded Dec 1916 - R.Berks(50766)

6065(235126) Pte George W McBETH - Byker - wounded Feb 1917 - R.Berks(227084)

9317 Pte William Pearson - 13th Bn,NF - 16 Park St, Gateshead - wounded Sept 1916 - transferred to 1/4th Bn,NF - R.Berks(50770)

3/9508 CQMS Fenwick Emmerson - 3rd(Res)Bn,NF - R.Berks(39800)

I'll again update my previous list as I have home addresses and all of their six figure numbers were found in the AVL.

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Here's a couple of good'uns from your five figure NF numbers;-

42717 Pte Charles Leonard Butler– 3rd(Res)Bn, NF - Enl.9/8/14 – Dis.10/12/17 – XVI/Sickness – SWB No.282456 - Fmly 5th Bn,R.Berks(10252)

42819 Pte J.Morris – 3rd(HS)GSN Bn, NF – Enl.12/11/14 – Dis.7/5/18 – XVI/Sickness – SWB No.B/130493 – Did not serve oversseas - Fmly R.Berks(15543)

53810 Pte Ernest William George – 2nd GSN Bn, NF – To Class ‘Z’ Reserve - Fmly R.Berks(8262) & 1st GSN Bn,OBLI(22386)

[purley]

Graham

A few snippets from your last post

PITTENDREIGH has his 1914/15 Star medal roll entry marked 'CORRECT REGT NO FOR STAMPING 200337' which would not tie in with his entry to France as that should have his 1531 number - I wonder why? - could it be tied in with his MM award? He was noted as a Sergeant when he was sent back to England for demob 1/1/1919 for Cologne.

DICKENSON - I have him as 16/1123

EMERSON - I have him as 9508 in the 10th NF

I was checking back on the regular rolls and found a NF batch from R Berks 50752 to 50785, then a DLI batch from R Berks 50787 to 50802,

then another NF batch from 50803 to 50820 followed by a large R Warks batch - there are quite a few names missing however - Do you have lists that show R Berks numbers in these ranges.

Interestingly the first name on the 1st list was 50752 John W Atkinson who was 10/1414 in the DLI and 26/41245 in the NF

referring back to your post #34

Our Southern Command Records Centre was at Warwick and they seem to behave like a lot of Bureaucratic jobsworths if you read the acrimonious correspondence between them and the main R Berks depot. However the territorials do not seem to have had anything to do with them and kept their own records. However the 1st/4th thought even less of Major Porter the TF secretary as when he went out to visit the battalion the colonel told his officers to lead him a dance through the trenches, make sure his smart new uniform got duffed up and fired very lights and bullets over his head so he could get some local colour - appararantly he dined for some time on his experiences at the front.!!

As far as SWB records go they used 4/5 figure numbers up till 21/3/17 when they switched to 6 figure numbers for discharge dates with two exceptions for discharges on the 11/2/17 and 9/3/17

re your post #31

numbers might not have been issued to men who were not there but they were certainly allocated by someone in the TFA and not within the three individual battalions and did include men at home.

As we dont have any part 2 orders I cannot comment

have already commented on the missing - ie that they they were presumed dead after a year.

we do have some gaps in the overseas men as well as non-overseas but I have not had the time to track each of then down seperately

certainly our TF men at home were included in the War and victory rolls

our TF men never used the 4/ prefix - some of the special reserve used their 3/ prefix but otherwise Royal Berks men did not use their battalion as a prefix.

I think we may be at cross purposes vis a vis medal cards - we have been working from the medal rolls and these are arranged by regiment according to where the man was serving on 11/11/18 - what number was stamped on his medal is quite another issue.

I have 3727 'old' names/numbers out of a possible 7994 (or at least thats the highest old TF apart from the 20xxx series for men from other RBR battalions) I would guess that around 1000 were pre-war men who either were off the TA Books by August 1914 or enlisted directly in a service battalion. or were also reservists.

regards

John

+

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Thanks for your last and I've corrected 16/1123 John Dickinson, which was an handwriting error by me.

Emmerson must have been serving with the 10th before transfer to the R.Berks, so thanks for that.

Can't tell you any more about Pittendreigh at present, as I still have lots of NF Rolls to cover - there's around 60 volumes to go through.

I was fascinated to see that your home service personnel have been included in your War & Victory Rolls. Why would this be, when none were eligible for either gong, if they never served overseas?

Your Regiments omission of pre-fix numbers, despite the introduction of an ACI in May 1915 to use them to prevent duplication isn't uncommon. Fortunately Northern Command and in particular the Northumberlands seem to have abided by regulations etc in respect of numbering.

Now Jim Davies does have an interesting point as recently I have been finding discharged men resurfacing in the Labour Corps or back in the NF. What happend to all of those transferred to Class 'B', 'W', 'P' & 'P'(T) Reserves? I suspect as the war went on more than one was called back and like Jim's TF Lincolns probably given new six figure numbers.

Further strange examples I have are one young lad ends up with two SWB's. In the first case he's didn't even serve overseas. He returns at a later date and discharged again with sickness. One lad who was with a regular Bn had a very interseting enlistment date of January 1917, however this lad had been serving as early as 1914, because the regimental journal has him being promoted Sept 1914.

My own experiences over the years in doing NF numbers and covering both SWB, MIC's and Medal Rolls is that not all is as it seems and errors do creep in or something makes you suspicious that not all is correct.

Will keep on making NF corrections as I find them.

Graham.

[jim_davies]

Graham,

Regarding my "civil employment" men. Most appear not to have actually returned to their units, actually rather staying with their civil employment until Dec 1918, when they were discharged. What surprises me, isn't so much that they were renumbered, but that their 6 digit number made it onto their MIC, as none served overseas after 1915. Not sure if the release of men to civil employment was a big issue in other battalions, but in 4th Lincs, perhaps 70-100 men of the original battalion that went overseas were sent home in the summer and fall of 1915, some after incurring what appear to be minor wounds.

There are also frequent references in the local newspapers from 1917 and 1918 to meetings being held in Stamford lobbying for "discharged men" to be conscripted after men who had not served at all have been called up.

I also a have fair number of men with SWB who would appear to have been recalled in 1918, and served with a variety of different units.

[Graham Stewart]

John,

A few more to ponder over;-

202060 Browne Joseph H – almost certainly a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227061)

202069 Bullimore Robert – Swanton Abbott, Norfolk – wounded Dec 1917 - definately a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227064)

202088 Edwards John – Norwich, Norfolk – wounded Dec 1917 - definately a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227072)

202114 Mayer Herbert – possibly a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227082)

202145 Mawson Joe H – possibly an East Yorks Territorial - R.Berk(50814)

202210 Fox Charles R – Newbury – possibly a DLI Territorial - R.Berks(50806)

78988 Pte Stuart Ashby & 78991 Pte Robert Barker had previously served with the Sussex Yeomanry(170894 & 170889) and were almost certainly serving with the 1/4th Bn, NF before transfer to the R.Berks.

[Graham Stewart]

Jim,

Are your lads discharged KR Para 392(xxi) - if so then they're "time expired". I too have loads from the original NF(TF) battalions returning home for discharge mainly under this KR. At the same time strange ones are beginning to re-appear having supposedly been "discharged".

In my way of thinking, I would think anyone going to any of the Reserve Classes would technically still be eligible for recall as would any reservist. If that were the case then all service records would be kept and updated accordingly. I have a set of docs at home to a lad in the Kings Regt who is only there a few days before going to a Class of Reserve. He's another one that turn's up in the Labour Corps at a later date and although not NF you have to think how many more supposedly "discharged" men came back???

[purley]

John,

A few more to ponder over;-

202060 Browne Joseph H – almost certainly a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227061) -E YORKS 7904

202069 Bullimore Robert – Swanton Abbott, Norfolk – wounded Dec 1917 - definately a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227064) - E YORKS 7913

202088 Edwards John – Norwich, Norfolk – wounded Dec 1917 - definately a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227072) - E YORKS 7940

202114 Mayer Herbert – possibly a Norfolk Territorial - R.Berks(227082) - E YORKS 7973

202145 Mawson Joe H – possibly an East Yorks Territorial - R.Berk(50814) - 10/NF 41773

202210 Fox Charles R – Newbury – possibly a DLI Territorial - R.Berks(50806) - 10/DLI 35616

78988 Pte Stuart Ashby & 78991 Pte Robert Barker had previously served with the Sussex Yeomanry(170894 & 170889) and were almost certainly serving with the 1/4th Bn, NF before transfer to the R.Berks.

Graham

have marked the quote above - most were E Yorks

Ashby was 2/1 Sussex Yeomanry - I had Barker as 8th Sussex Yeomanry but think that must be a misprint for 3/1

I checked my entries for the 3rd/4th Royal Berks which would have all the home men in it (117 entries) - yes you are right most did not get the War & Victory medals although a few got the TFM - sorry about that

John

[jim_davies]

Graham,

Completely different group from the time expired lads I have. The discharge date for the tiem expired lads, is given in the 1914-15 Star roll as whatever date (usually in 1916), whereas these lads are all in 1918 or 1919.

Also most of these lads would not even been able to be time expired as they were men who enlisted after the outbreak of the war. PM me your address, and I woudl be happy to forward you some of their service papers, which will hopefully make things a little clearer.

Jim

[sandyford]

Have checked the information I hold on the 10 four figure numbers bewteen 6/3424 & 6/3434 and between 265678 & 265679 who were not renumbered.

There is only 1 six figure number gap where there were once 10 four-figure numbered soldiers

265674 Renwick 6/3399

265675 Scott 6/3419

265676 Nesbitt 6/3421

265677

265678 King 6/3424

******6/3425 Not traced

******6/3426 Grieve KIA 15/09/1916

******6/3427 Gibbon Wounded Discharged 28/09/1916

******6/3428 Candlish DOW 12/04/1916

******6/3429 Not traced

******6/3430 Not traced

******6/3431 Not traced

******6/3432 Harkness Discharged 03/03/1916

******6/3433 Robson SWB & then cancelled.

265679

265680 Bruce 6/3434

265681 Milburn 6/3436

5 had died or been discharged from the March to October 1916.

I have not yet traced 5 of them.