michaelmclaren Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Hi This picture was recently found in a box of old family photographs, unfortunately we are not sure who this man is and I wondered if we could get some clues from the photo. The medals, I am sure, are a WW1 trio but can we tell the regiment or anything else from the picture? Thanks for looking Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 1 February , 2009 Admin Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Looks like there is something above his stripes possibly a crown? Wonder if there is something on the victory medal ribbon, maybe oak leaves, or did I drink too much vin rouge at lunch time? Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Gordon Highlanders maybe. It's not Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Hi I`ll go for the Seaforths ,what part of Scotland to you and your family hail from it may help ? Gary.F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmclaren Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Michelle, I think you are right about a possible crown above the stripes, as for the mark on the Victory medal ribbon it is extremely difficult to tell even on the original photo but there does seem to be some kind of mark. There are also four stripes (I think) on his lower right sleeve. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 I don`t know what it is but the picture doesn`t look right ,I take it it`s from the 20`s ? his jacket just looks as if he has just turned it up and a button undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 There are also four stripes (I think) on his lower right sleeve. They're Overseas Service Chevrons, he appears to have 3 or 4 blue chevrons. The chevron for 1914 was red and shows up much darker on B&W photos the remaining years were blue. The crown above the Sgts stripes would make him a CQMS Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmclaren Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Gary, Most of my family at this time were from the Ayrshire area, particularly Beith/Kilbirnie. We thought the man's name was SEGGIE. My great uncle was Robert Seggie who was killed in June 1915 at Ypres, so the photo can't be him, he had two other brothers- Walter who served in machine gun corps but according to his MIC he would have had a pair rather than a trio. The other possibility is John Young Seggie, but I can't find any evidence of his service. Here is a picture of Robert Seggie, I thought there was some family resemblance. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 I think Seaforths also, I think the stripe is too bright to be the Gordon's gold, although there is something a bit "off" about the uniform. The jacket is not a standard one, apart from what looks like a missing button, it also has scalloped pocket flaps rather than the standard square ones (compare with the second photo). It is not, as has been pointed out, tailored for kilt wear but this was common, as was the practice of turning them back for photos. The lower pockets also look extra large and baggy, more like those on an officer's SD jacket. I have seen similar jackets in photographs of pre-war territorial units - do you know if he was a pre war territorial? It may be my eyes, but the jacket also seems to be made of a finer than usual material. The Sporran (experts can correct me) looks like an NCO's or even officer's pattern cantle rather than the standard OR pattern, so perhaps correct for a Sgt. My guess would be a post war, (post demob?) photo to show off the medals where a uniform has been assembled from whatever bits of kit he was able to hang on to or had from earlier. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Gordon Highlanders maybe. It's not Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Mike The large light square in the tartan rules out the "Universal" pattern, so that eliminates the Argyll & Sutherlands Highlanders and the Black Watch. I'd say the square is too big to be Mackenzie, so that would eliminate the Seaforths for me. Likewise the square is too large to be Cameron of Erracht, so that would eliminate the QOCH. He doesn't look like a piper/drummer, so that would rule out a musician in one of the Lowland regiments. All in all, I vote for the Gordons too, although I'm not considering all the various smaller/territorial units. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACRAE Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Gary, Most of my family at this time were from the Ayrshire area, particularly Beith/Kilbirnie. We thought the man's name was SEGGIE. My great uncle was Robert Seggie who was killed in June 1915 at Ypres, so the photo can't be him, he had two other brothers- Walter who served in machine gun corps but according to his MIC he would have had a pair rather than a trio. The other possibility is John Young Seggie, but I can't find any evidence of his service. Here is a picture of Robert Seggie, I thought there was some family resemblance. Michael This man is Royal Scots Fusiliers Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 If there are any sporran experts, the shape of the metal part of the sporran may give a clue Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 .. the shape of the metal part of the sporran may give a clue Mike Mike, That's the cantle in the jargon! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Cheers Mark, I thought there would be a technical term for it. I also was pretty sure someone would tell me. I've never worn a kilt. I have even worse knees than another member of this forum. They are different for each regiment aren't they? Cheers Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Cheers Mark, I thought there would be a technical term for it. I also was pretty sure someone would tell me. I've never worn a kilt. I have even worse knees than another member of this forum. They are different for each regiment aren't they? Cheers Mike. see post 9! BTW the yellow/gold stripe in the Gordon kilt almost never shows up in wartime photos (because of the way the photographic processes of the time represented colour SEE HERE FOR AN ATTEMPT TO SHOW THIS. I just went through over 100 Gordons pics to check and the stripe shows as light in two of them, yet invariably shows in Seaforths (being white rather than yellow/gold) - this is the clincher for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 see post 9! BTW the yellow/gold stripe in the Gordon kilt almost never shows up in wartime photos (because of the way the photographic processes of the time represented colour SEE HERE FOR AN ATTEMPT TO SHOW THIS. I just went through over 100 Gordons pics to check and the stripe shows as light in two of them, yet invariably shows in Seaforths (being white rather than yellow/gold) - this is the clincher for me. Chris, What an interesting topic! That angle had not occurred to me at all. You've convinced me My first kilt when I was a wee boy was Gordon so I guess I was being a bit biassed there LOL! (And we're from Ayrshire too!) WRT cantle - yes: I nearly put a link back up to your post #9 CHeers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmclaren Posted 1 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Many thanks for all these very helpful replies. It is marvellous how much detail you have added from just this picture. Hopefully a bit more family research may point to a name which ties in with this evidence. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Hi I have to agree with Chris on this. There is something wrong with the first photo, and the uniform looks cobbled together, and doesn't fit. He looks very un-soldierly for a colour sergeant. 1. He is wearing an officers' Service Dress jacket - not Highland style, and with a high-neck fastening. 2. His kilt is too long, and unkempt. 3. His hose are a Seaforth Piper's, and they're sagging. 4. Possibly a piper's sporran too, which is in rag order. I think this lad has dressed up. The other lad is a very smart-looking soldier in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 I think he is a Seaforth - maybe untidy but original. See comparison with a smarter soldier - same sporran I think and also similar jacket pattern? This image was copied from I remember not where, but possibly this forum. I only keep it as I have an interest in Seaforths. But it may be coming in useful here! Ian Edit - well not quite the same jacket, but similar style pockets? The serjeant in the top view appears only to have the jacket flaps pushed back by the sporran and not an attempt at rolling back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 I think he is a Seaforth - maybe untidy but original. See comparison with a smarter soldier - same sporran I think and also similar jacket pattern? Ian Edit - well not quite the same jacket, but similar style pockets? The serjeant in the top view appears only to have the jacket flaps pushed back by the sporran and not an attempt at rolling back? Hi Ian, I agree with the regiment ID but not much else! Although the sporran is white with black tassels your chap is wearing a standard O/Rs sporran with a leather and brass cantle and stag's heid badge - not an all metal cantle like the original picture. This chap (very smart he is too) is also wearing a standard jacket - tailored for kilt wear, both upper pocket flaps and and lower pockets are different (on the standard jacket the pockets are inside, on the originally posted picture I think they may be on the outside, the flaps are certainly far larger). His hose are also a different pattern. Tom, I am not sure it is an officer's SD tunic, but rather a TF pattern one. It seems several battalions of different regiments wore such (inc. I think Liverpool Scots) I will dig out some photos I have at home when I get back. On an officer's SD tunic the collar would usually be worn open with a tie, so I would be suprised if it had been tailored for the "high/tight" look here - although this affectation was apparently common among O/Rs (esp old soldiers) and NCOs. It is an intriguing picture in some ways. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 4th Gordons - duly noted. I was not thinking they were exactly the same, just comparing sporran style and jacket features. OK, try this pic for size - all sorts and styles but check the serjeant top left row. Looks a similar jacket style? These are again Seaforths and a pic I have copied off this forum(or somewhere....anyway not my copyright!) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 Chris, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The jacket is a pre-war, non-Highland Officers' Pattern SD Jacket (it does not have a cutaway, but he has attempted to fold the skirts in). The collar is of the style worn by these officers of the 4th Black Watch TF. Other Ranks jackets do not have scalloped pockets (and the top pockets are long), and OR's do not have large expanding lower pockets. It may have previously been worn by a Warrant Officer, but not a Highland one. The photo has to be after 1919 as he is wearing (not very smartly) the full line of medals. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 I agree they LOOK like the standard Great War medal trio, but are they in fact the BWM and VM? The '14 or '14-15 Star looks the part, but I wonder about the other two as I cannot quite make them out. Admittedly it LOOKS like a VM ribbon. If they are the usual trio, then this is early 1920's perhaps. Maybe his uniform has been dug out for the display of the recently received medals, hence the missing button, etc.? I think that was already suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 I am surprised that this sergeant allowed anyone near him with a camera when in such a state. I can only imagine he as the survivor of a post war explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 2 February , 2009 Share Posted 2 February , 2009 Tom, I don't think this lad is going to be walking past any guardroom ... as he might end up spending time in it, or peeling tatties. He's also not wearing a ribbon cockade on his Glengarry, or a Seaforth's cap badge, in fact I don't think he's even wearing a cap badge! Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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