Rockdoc Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Since a lot of the coins and tokens that were in the can with these two discs also had holes punched in them, I'm assuming that was something done long after the fact. I measured them and they're exactly one inch wide. They look like workers' tallies to me. In some industries, like mining, each worker has two tallies. One is handed in as the miner goes down the shaft and the second is given up on his return. That means the officials know who's underground in the case of an accident. If this company made explosives something similar may have applied. Another use for a tally was to ensure that the right man got the right wages. The tally was handed in at the wages station and the pay-packet (sometimes a small tin) was handed back. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Can we please get the nomenclature correct, it is called a cartridge case not a shell case. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 John/Torrey Thank you both for that - as I've learnt something tonight. I too had always assumed it had been cut-off - imagining it to be a similar shape to an 18 Pdr. Dimensions are 118 diameter (open end) & 86 tall so presumably a MkII. Are those the dimensions you were referring to - as I couldn't get 114 off it? Might make sense of one of the markings too - No.1/II - with the II referring to MkII ? Regards Brian Hello, Brian - The mouths of fired shell cases frequently are expanded slightly, so your shell case is indeed a complete and correct 114x86 shell case for the 4.5-in Mark II howitzer. I'm puzzled about the "No. 1/II" marking. Can you read the top portion of the headstamp? It should read "4.5 IN. HOW. II" or something close. I have never seen a Mark "I/II" marking, but perhaps another forum member can enlighten me about that. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 I never thought about workers' tallies before. That would explain why they don't have holes in the center like part of a cartridge case. Looks like P.E. & M. Co. (Poole Engineering & Machine Co.) merged with a New York company in 1916, so they date from some time before that. They specialized in munitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 21 January , 2009 Share Posted 21 January , 2009 Hello, Brian - The mouths of fired shell cases frequently are expanded slightly, so your shell case is indeed a complete and correct 114x86 shell case for the 4.5-in Mark II howitzer. I'm puzzled about the "No. 1/II" marking. Can you read the top portion of the headstamp? It should read "4.5 IN. HOW. II" or something close. I have never seen a Mark "I/II" marking, but perhaps another forum member can enlighten me about that. Regards, Torrey Torrey I'll see if I can photograph it tomorrow so the markings are clear - then you can have a look for yourself. I might well be reading it wrong. Cheers Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 The SHELL is the exploding thingy wot goes into the end of the CARTRIDGE case - see post 27, and for a view post 16. The shell may have a casing, which is likely to be steel, and the cartridge case is usually made of brass, but it is not a SHELL CASE..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 January , 2009 Share Posted 22 January , 2009 Absolutely correct. And heres a couple more cartridge case bases. Mick 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Unfortunately there is no guide to large calibre case markings or headstamps, although this site gives some examples. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ator1149/wfm/ww1/stamps2.html A huge amount of detail on the ammunition can be found in the reprints available of the various miltary textbooks, e.g. "Treatise on Ammunition 1915" or "Explanatory List of Service Markings 1918". Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 TonyE Many thanks for the link - that was very useful - only thing it didn't have was who the manufacturer of mine was - P B & Co Torrey I will post a photo of my 4.5" shortly - having reread your post - mine is a 4.5" MkII as I can now see the II stamp. The no.1/II stamp is on the central part of the cartridge case. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Here is the detail of the central area - shows the No.1/II mark, the manufacturer mark & also the CMM symbol. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 P.B.& Co. is Platt Brothers & Co. of Oldham. However, they only made the primer on your case. The case manufacturer is the MCM (CMM?) logo, but I cannot give a firm identification of them. They may be Mabbs Cross Motors. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Tony Thanks for that - I googled Mabbs Cross Motors but couldn't find anything - all the Mabbs Cross references pointed to Wigan though - was that where they were ? Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT11 Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 I'm new to this most informative forum and am trying to identify a cartridge measuring 9.25 inches in length x 3 inches diameter at the top with the following stamped on the bottom of the base: G.M.C.O. 1917 3 IN L.G. Lot 74 (anchor symbol) J.B.S. Also a small stamp N8 on the perimeter. Many thanks for any assistance. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Ben Welcome to the Forum! It's addictive. Best wishes Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Sounds like a 3 inch naval case, but possibly American as the Royal Navy did not use an anchor symbol for naval service. It was made in 1917 in Canada though by Garland Manufacturing Company Ltd of Hamilton Ontario. I cannot help with the "JBS" though. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 TonyE Many thanks for the link - that was very useful - only thing it didn't have was who the manufacturer of mine was - P B & Co Torrey I will post a photo of my 4.5" shortly - having reread your post - mine is a 4.5" MkII as I can now see the II stamp. The no.1/II stamp is on the central part of the cartridge case. Regards Brian Hello, Brian - Thanks for the photo. As Tony wrote, the markings in question are on the (removable) primer, rather than on the case itself. I believe that there were some British manufacturers during WWI who made only brass shell cases and others that made only primers. [someone please correct me if I'm wrong.] When shell cases were reused, the primers were replaced, so often a 1917 or 1918-dated primer will be found in a shell case that was manufactured during a prior year. I have several fired primers that were found on the Somme, so apparently some primers were removed in the field after the shell was fired. You have a nice, well-stuck example. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Tony Thanks for that - I googled Mabbs Cross Motors but couldn't find anything - all the Mabbs Cross references pointed to Wigan though - was that where they were ? Regards Brian Unfortunately I do not have an address for them, but Wigan would make sense as it was a heavily industrialised area. Shell bodies and cases were made by all sorts of small companies and it is often very difficult to track them down ninety years later. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT11 Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Sounds like a 3 inch naval case, but possibly American as the Royal Navy did not use an anchor symbol for naval service. It was made in 1917 in Canada though by Garland Manufacturing Company Ltd of Hamilton Ontario. I cannot help with the "JBS" though. Regards TonyE Many thanks Tony, this is very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT11 Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Ben Welcome to the Forum! It's addictive. Best wishes Brian Brian, Thank you very much. Best regards, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FAWMCK Posted 12 June , 2015 Share Posted 12 June , 2015 Hoping someone can help me out here. I have a WWI shell casing and on the bottom is stamped the following: 75 DEC A. RS. L 168 12 B Will endeavour to also post a photo. Can anyone tell me a bit about this ? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 20 June , 2015 Share Posted 20 June , 2015 Hello - Your piece is a 75x350 shell case for the French M-1897 75mm field gun. It was manufactured at Rennes in 1912 ["ARS" is the code for Atelier de Constructions de Rennes and "12B" is the code for 1912; I do not know what the "B" indicates]. See my post # 11 in this thread for additional information. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 September , 2017 Share Posted 1 September , 2017 Hi Dave, Just wondered if you managed to find out more about the shell case with 'REMANIE' stamped on the base? I have one of these, too, and always curious to know what it meant. It's possible shell cases were re-used, especially as the war went on and metal became scarcer. Did you find out if the British re-cycled shell cases as well? I'll include a photo next time, if that would be of interest. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 2 September , 2017 Share Posted 2 September , 2017 The brass cases are not 'shells' but propellant containers. In many forts or large artillery, there were only 5 or 6 for each gun. As they popped out of the breech, they were allowed to cool and then sent back to the magazine where a 'sack' of propellant was put back in and it went up to the gun to be used again. In the case of fixed field artillery there were many more cases, and once again, they were reused. Mobile artillery would normally have a case for each shell, and these would be collected at the end of an action and sent or taken back for refilling. If the arillery had to move on in a hurry, the cases would be abandoned, but this was not popular with the the supply system. The explosive propellatn was not loose in the case, but in some sort of container, often a sack - which was easy to move and store. I did once find a mild steel container in the forests, but that is the only time I have seen such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manzin Posted 19 November , 2017 Share Posted 19 November , 2017 Hello I'm seeking some information. I believe I have 2 pairs of ww1 shells. Would someone be able to help? I have added some pictures Thanks Amanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manzin Posted 19 November , 2017 Share Posted 19 November , 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now