S.S. "Argus"

[stirrer]

On the 1915 British Merchant Navy Crew Lists site he is listed as D. G. Richards,  Chief Engineer,  born Monmouth. Did two voyages that year on SS Argus , Official No. 83990.

[Guest]

I'm tracing my Family History and I've come across a document which my mum put together it states "Thomas Williams DOB 03/01/1851 from South Shields was a 2nd Engineer among a crew of 16 aboard ss ARGUS which was lost at sea in a collision with the Russian Vessel SOROKAI ( convoy caught in fog ).

 

Interesting that the OP is from Maesteg and I'm down the road in Cardiff in South Wales!

[ryanm29]

I've been doing a bit of research on a family member who was also lost on SS Argus and is listed on the Glynn War memorial (Near Larne).. James McConnell who was on the vessel when it sank.

 

James would have been my grandfathers brother and family oral history suggests that the ship had been in convoy when it collided with an escort ship which hit the Argus and caused it to sink.  It may well be the case that it was another ship they hit. I can see no other information about this Argus (83990)

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, ryanm29 said:

. I can see no other information about this Argus (83990)

This the vessel that @ernest james has already mentioned in his post dated 19 June 2012.

MB

 

On 21st October 1917 SS Argus was one of the ships in a Scandinavian convoy.

 

There was of course another collision off the Shetlands that day - The escort destroyer HMS Marmion was in collision with HMS Tirade, resulting in Marmion sinking. There was very bad weather at the time and this contributed to the accident.

Edited 5 April , 2021 by KizmeRD

[KizmeRD]

There’s certainly plenty of confusion regarding the loss of the steamship Argos. The ship was owned by Shamrock Shipping Co. (Larne, Belfast) at the time and is known to have arrived at Lerwick from Tynseside carrying a cargo of coal. She then departed Lerwick on 29th October 1917, for Tromsø, Norway, in a large Convoy but appears to have vanished somewhere on route (in poor weather and fog).

There are a couple of incidents on passage that may have a bearing...

 

(1)  At approximately 5 am on the morning of the 21/10/1917 the SS Frisia, part of the eastbound convoy, was involved in a collision with an unknown steamship. The bow of the unknown steamship penetrated 1 meter into the port side of Frisia. The emergency signal was sounded and the starboard lifeboat was launched. The port boat had been damaged in the collision. The lifeboat had 8 men onboard; it tried to reach the other steamship who's stern-light could be seen a few ship lengths to windward. Having failed to reach the other steamship the lifeboat then attempted to return to SS Frisia but lost sight of her. At 6.30 am the SS Magnus, found the lifeboat and took the men onboard.

(2) SS Magnus also reported that she had just damaged her bow in a collision with an unknown ship and was searching the area for the other vessel involved in order to offer assistance, but the unknown ship could not be located.

It was never established whether the SS Frisia and SS Magnus collided with each other, or possibly one, or maybe even both, had collided with the unfortunate SS Argus. 
 

MB

[ryanm29]

Wow, crazy!  thanks for the info

I can see why there has been a lot of confusion in the oral history given down by the family over the resulting 100 years... although my father who relayed it to me (again this weekend) would have heard this story directly from his own father who was also in the MM during the war.

 

I always found it strange that a ship travelling in a convoy during the war and going missing was not recorded as a war loss.  I understand that it was because it wasn't seen as 'enemy action' but being in a convoy as part of wartime trade seems quite harsh.. but again.. it was 100 years ago.

[KizmeRD]

You might be interested in reading this press article...

MB

[ryanm29]

That is very interesting, I note that they've listed Robert Bodles as 'Bowden'.  

[KizmeRD]

6 hours ago, ryanm29 said:

I always found it strange that a ship travelling in a convoy during the war and going missing was not recorded as a war loss.  I understand that it was because it wasn't seen as 'enemy action' but being in a convoy as part of wartime trade seems quite harsh.. but again.. it was 100 years ago.

I agree, it is sad that apart from the RNVR men aboard (DEMS gunners), the loss of other men serving on the S.S. Argus appear to have been neglected/not commemorated . I understood that the CWGC criteria for civilians was that their deaths had to have occurred on duty and of a war cause, or one due to increased risk or threat occasioned by war. Ordinary collisions between merchant ships (even in wartime) are not normally deemed to be sufficient grounds, but surely once a merchant ship comes under naval direction and protection as part of a designated convoy, there is a stronger case to argue (in the event the ship is lost at sea through undetermined circumstances).

 

MB

Edited 6 April , 2021 by KizmeRD

[ryanm29]

Interestingly, Captian Cooper and Seaman Ellis are buried in Fredrickstad Cemetery in Norway listed as 21/10/17.  The same cemetery lists 8 from HMS Marmion as the same day.

 

While there is no direct correlation between the two incidents i'm aware of, is it unusual that they'd end up in the same graveyard?

 

 

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, ryanm29 said:

Interestingly, Captian Cooper and Seaman Ellis are buried in Fredrickstad Cemetery in Norway listed as 21/10/17.  The same cemetery lists 8 from HMS Marmion as the same day.

 

While there is no direct correlation between the two incidents i'm aware of, is it unusual that they'd end up in the same graveyard?

 

 

 

Fredrickstad Military Cemetery is located to the south of Oslo, so it seems unlikely to me that the bodies washed ashore in that particular location - perhaps the bodies were recovered at sea by a Norwegian ship and then taken back to port and interned there. 
 

One thing I do find somewhat perplexing is that the civilian Master of this ship qualified for a CWGC headstone, yet the SS Argus itself isn’t commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial.

 

And finally, just to add one further thing to the mystery surrounding the loss of SS Argus. The German U-boat UC.40 was on patrol close to the Shetland Islands on 20th October 1917 and claims to have fired a torpedo at a steamer which missed and hit another unknown (1,000 ton) ship instead. See below (entry no.2). This information was found on following website https://lostinwatersdeep.co.uk/ss-argus.html

 

[Michael Lowrey]

Kevin Heath of lostinwatersdeep.co.uk is an old friend and is more optimistic than I am that UC 40's torpedo attack could have accounted for the loss of Argus. The German submarine went deep after firing her stern torpedo tube at a steamer. A detonation was heard a minute and 45 seconds later. If Argus were hit and sunk, it’s something that some other vessel would likely have noticed. UC 40’s KTB describing the attack is attached.

[KizmeRD]

Yes, I’m inclined to believe that the ship wasn’t sunk on 20th October, whilst still in vicinity of Shetland Islands, I’ve now read a report that the body of Capt. Cooper was ashore on Frōya Island so I suspect that whateve happened to Argus occurred a little nearer the coast of Norway, which probably means date of sinking was more probably 21st October 1917.

 

In any case it must have been a very nervous time for any ship participating in a Scandinavian convoy, bearing in mind losses recently suffered during the Action off Lerwick, only a few days earlier.

 

MB

 

[ryanm29]

Yes the CWGC documents show a concentration in 1961 of several burials from Frōya Island, including some from HMS Marmion.

 

I note the date of death was originally mistaken as 19/11/17 for Capt. Cooper, I'm wondering if that was the date of burial in Froya.  Could it be the case that they were picked up by a ship which had Froya as its destination and buried once the vessel reached harbour?

[ryanm29]

Another little bit of interesting information I thought i'd share was about the Mate on this ship.

 

He was Herbert Andrew Gunn who also lived next door to Henry Cooper in Penarth.

 

One thing I have been struggling to find (there is probably a good explanation), but I cannot find a medal record for any of the men on this ship.  Would they not have been entitled to medals posthumously?

[KizmeRD]

47 minutes ago, ryanm29 said:

Another little bit of interesting information I thought i'd share was about the Mate on this ship.

 

He was Herbert Andrew Gunn who also lived next door to Henry Cooper in Penarth.

 

One thing I have been struggling to find (there is probably a good explanation), but I cannot find a medal record for any of the men on this ship.  Would they not have been entitled to medals posthumously?

 

I believe that this is the Mate (his age is right)

If so, his medal card is here.

MB

[ryanm29]

The Link was corrupted is it the DOB 1869?

 

I  note its sent to the War office and then onward to gravesend rather than to Penarth.

 

Not sure what the Certif/Dis A of M/18900/19 is.

 

Thanks

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, ryanm29 said:

 

Not sure what the Certif/Dis A of M/18900/19 is.

 

This is equivalent to a merchant seaman’s service number, it is the reference number stated in his discharge book (a compulsory document recording all the ships a man has worked on).

 

Digital copies of merchant seamen’s records are searchable and downloadable on FindMyPast

 

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/britain- merchant-seamen-1918-1941

 

I don’t have a subscription to FindMyPast, so I couldn’t say for sure that this is your man on the medal card, or just someone else with the same name (the d.o.b. needs verifying).

 

MB

[ernest james]

I looked at the medal card on the National Archives website.

The note in the top right corner is "War Dept vessel M/18900/19" so it doesn't refer  to the seaman's service number.

I think this Herbert Gunn, a marine engineer, was born and lived in Gravesend.  There is more information on him on line.

best wishes

ernestjames

[KizmeRD]

Sorry but as regards the discharge number (Dis.A) shown on the medal card, this is what identifies him as a registered merchant seaman (and is what you’ll need this to do a trace in the Central Index Register of Merchant Seamen 1914-1940 held on Microfische at Southampton City Archives (if not a FindMyPast subscriber). 
 

In the case of the man of same name from Gravesend, he also happened to have served on a war department vessel (which S.S Argus wasn’t), therefore clearly not the same man who was living in Penarth at the time of his death (and whom I now understand was born in 1862 in Yarmouth and who moved as a married man to South Shields and thence on to Penarth).

 

MB

[ryanm29]

Hi Folks

 

Thanks for your updates.

 

So I guess my question wasnt specific to Mr Gunn.  But Generally, if you died before the end of the war as a seaman, did you just not get medals?  Was the medal record part of a 'permission to wear' and that was all that was recorded rather than the issuance of said medals?

 

I have the medals in my posession of my Grandfather who was James McConnells brother and I have the medal card from the archives for it.  What I find strange is that there is no other record for James anywhere else, he would have been entitled to them as far as I can see, having spent 3 years at sea until 1917.  Oddly for others on the crew of the Argus I see no further mention.  Even searching for those who would be Next Of Kin.. in the case of James his father/mother.   Having asked my father about it he had not heard of the medals, no idea other than his family often talked of his uncle Jimmy.

 

Thanks

[KizmeRD]

Yes, a merchant seaman  who undertook one or more voyages through a danger zone during the Great War qualified for the award of the Mercantile Marine medal issued by the Board of Trade(as did service at sea of not less than six months) and this then automatically qualified them for the British War Medal too. But the medals had to be applied for, either by the recipient, or their next of kin.

MB

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 April , 2021 by KizmeRD

[ryanm29]

Would the recipient or their Next of kin be expected to Pay anything towards the medal? I'm trying to figure out why it wouldnt have been claimed...

 

Either that or are the Next of Kin registrations stored separately?

[KizmeRD]

These medals are official government awards for war service, not commemorative bling, therefore they were not purchased for cash. Do you actually know for sure that the medals were not claimed? Have you obtained a copy of the medal card(s). Have you been searching in the right place? Next of kin were not on a separate register, but the medal card will include n-o-k details if the recipient entitled to the award had died.

MB

[ryanm29]

Quote

  Do you actually know for sure that the medals were not claimed? 

 

That's the million dollar question.  I have the medal card of my Grandfather who survived and so I believe I have been looking in the correct place, but I have had no success therefore I cannot be certain.

I mention 'paying' because the only reason I could think of to explain why none of those who I know were deceased was perhaps a cost or financial burden on the family expected to pay for it for any reason.  

 

I genuinely have no idea as to what I could be doing wrong. I've looked online for all the crew members I can find, Cooper, Gunn, Bodles, McConnell and the two RNVR members yet I see nothing.  The only clear distinction being those who survived and those who did not, given I've found medals for other survivors of the war.

Edited 20 April , 2021 by ryanm29