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Remembered Today:

S.S. "Argus"


robertb

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Captain Henry Arthur Cooper, who had been Master of the ARGUS since 1915, or before, was not a Welshman as stated by the newspaper, he was, like his Mate Herbert Andrew Gunn, born in Great Yarmouth Norfolk, on 23 Jul 1860.  According to their Certificates of Competency HAC was living in South Shields by 1888 and HAG was also in Shields at an address quite close by 1893.  If, as has been said, they also both moved to Penarth then their keeping together in life is probably not a coincidence, possibly a friendship as I cannot find any family connections through marriage, they were both of a similar age.

 

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Yes, a merchant seaman  who undertook one or more voyages through a danger zone during the Great War qualified for the award of the Mercantile Marine medal issued by the Board of Trade(as did service at sea of not less than six months) and this then automatically qualified them for the British War Medal too. But the medals had to be applied for, either by the recipient, or their next of kin.

I think this is the wrong way round MB.  In July 1919 the King was pleased to announce that the BWM would be granted to Merchant Seamen, the criteria being 6 months service "at sea" between 1914 and 1918.  In addition, a Mercantile Marine War Medal could be granted to Merchant Seamen provided they first qualified for the BWM, the criteria being a voyage through a danger zone.  It was not automatic, I have found several Merchant Seamen who were awarded the BWM but not the MMWM as their travels did not take them through a danger zone.

 

Whilst it is of no consequence here as the Medal Card for Herbert Gunn the Engineer from Gravesend is not part of this post, I do, however, agree with Ernest James in that the number in the top right hand corner of the card is not a Discharge Book or Certificate Number.  At this time, these numbers were without letter prefixes and were of five, six or seven numerals, much later on a prefix of the letter R was added to British Seaman's discharge book numbers, other letters were added for Seamen who came from other parts of the Empire, eg M for Malta, and S for Singapore.  Whist it appears to be to do with the War Office I do not know what the M/18900/19 number means.

Tony

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15 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

... they also both moved to Penarth then their keeping together in life is probably not a coincidence, possibly a friendship as I cannot find any family connections through marriage, they were both of a similar age.

 


Probably no coincidence that those employed on a collier that prior to the war was mostly engaged in the transport of Welsh coal to Northern Ireland would conveniently be based either in the Cardiff area or else from around County Antrim. - In addition to the four Ulstermen, The Master and Mate were living in Penarth (from 1911 onwards), the Chief Engineer was from Maesteg and the Second Engineer was from Barry. (Sorry, but  haven’t gone on and traced other members of the crew). Married men probably got to see more of their families if they were based close to the ports that they were most regularly trading in and out of. 

 

15 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

I think this is the wrong way round MB.  In July 1919 the King was pleased to announce that the BWM would be granted to Merchant Seamen, the criteria being 6 months service "at sea" between 1914 and 1918.  In addition, a Mercantile Marine War Medal could be granted to Merchant Seamen provided they first qualified for the BWM, the criteria being a voyage through a danger zone.  It was not automatic, I have found several Merchant Seamen who were awarded the BWM but not the MMWM as their travels did not take them through a danger zone.

 

Tony - I’m not saying you’re wrong (not at all), just that according to the TNA guide https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamens-campaign-medal-records-1914-1918/ it is stated that...

  • Mercantile Marine Medal – awarded to those who served at sea for at least six months, and on at least one voyage through a danger zone
  • British War Medal -automatically awarded to all recipients of the Mercantile Marine Medal
15 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

 

Whilst it is of no consequence here as the Medal Card for Herbert Gunn the Engineer from Gravesend is not part of this post, I do, however, agree with Ernest James in that the number in the top right hand corner of the card is not a Discharge Book or Certificate Number.  At this time, these numbers were without letter prefixes and were of five, six or seven numerals, much later on a prefix of the letter R was added to British Seaman's discharge book numbers, other letters were added for Seamen who came from other parts of the Empire, eg M for Malta, and S for Singapore.  Whist it appears to be to do with the War Office I do not know what the M/18900/19 number means.

 


Personally, I’ve only ever seen a Dis.A number shown in the top right corner of the BOT medal card (obviously useful to have this included when merchant seamen often have the same name). What function would it serve to reference only one particular vessel that a man may have served on during the war, and then not to refer to it by name? Again (Tony) I’m not saying that your wrong, only that I’ve never seen it used like this before.

 

And finally, if @ryanm29 already has the medal index card of his GF, then presumably he will be in possession of information relating to whether or not the medals were issued, or to whom the medals were sent to (normally found on the reverse of the card). And in reply to his query about motives - I can only say that there are often complex emotional reasons why a next of kin may not have chosen to claim the medals due to their dead loved one. Perhaps they didn’t have any lingering enthusiasm for a war that had resulted in so much loss of life, perhaps their loss was still so raw that they didn’t want any reminders, or perhaps they didn’t believe that a piece of tin on a ribbon provided any meaningful consolation. 
 

PS I had a look at Charles Ellis’s RNVR service doc. in which it is stated he was discharged dead after his ship was ‘overdue’ then ‘missing’ then finally “drowned 21 October 1917 when S.S. Argus was sunk in collision”. So it does perhaps suggest that collision was in the end officially accepted as the probable cause of this ship’s loss.Incidently, Ellis served with the RND at Antwerp, Gallipoli and in France, prior to becoming a DAMS gunner.

 

MB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by KizmeRD
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So I have the medal card of my Grandfather, William who was the younger brother of James (lost in the Argus). Thankfully William went on to marry a different Captain's daughter and he died at the age of about 68 in 1961.

 

The delivery address is on the front of the card.. 5 Shore Road, Magheramourne.. nothing on the rear.  No Discharge number.

 

The family came from that area, lived there and nearby, but again no card for his lost brother at the same address, of course as you say, it could be that James' medals would have been too emotional for the parents on the loss of their second of 14 children after one died very young..  

image.png.42a0b2c3960995547709bedd0622930a.png

 

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Another reason why a family originally from Dublin might not have claimed any war medals might have been to do with Irish sentiments post Easter Rising. Many Republicans didn’t care to be in possession of British medals.

MB

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No, I can say with certainty that they were not from Dublin, nor republican.  I have records of them signing the Ulster Covenant in 1911, the entire family with the exception of the children.  With William having medals and living in the same 1-bed house as 13 others, I think its reasonably safe to say they were fine with it.

 

This was from near Larne, centre of the unionist Gun running into the harbour, most likely by men these guys knew or were distant family with.  Not sure why it says Dublin, could be the relevant Board of Trade office, but  I was curious about that too.

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You can construct a casualty list for the loss of Argus (ON 83990)  in Oct 1917 from   "British  Armed forces and Overseas Deaths and Burials"  in Findmypast.

 

I counted 14 crew and two RNVR gunners and the reason for the loss was given as a collision. Not down to enemy action.

 

I checked the crew to see if I could find any medal cards for them and I found three possible matches online at the British National Archives (TNA).

 

James Palmer, born 1857 in Portavogie, Co Down. card marked "deceased" . nok Portavogie. no seaman number.

George Perry, born 1870 in Omeath, (co louth) . card marked "deceased, widow living in South Shields. no seaman number.

Henry Tuck, born 1884 in South Shields. card marked "deceased". nok South Shields. no seaman number.

 

There was no sign of a William  Nelson from Islandmagee as reported in the newspaper but I did find a WJ Wilson from Islandmagee. Looks like a newspaper typo error. James Palmer 's birthplace was given as Bangor.

best wishes

 

ernestjames

 

 

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Hi ErnestJames that was very interesting and yes, I noticed that Bowden was also misspelt too in some records.  Thanks for sharing that information, i'l have to ask some more questions next time I'm near anyone who might know the answers as to what happened.

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Hi

I had a closer look at Robert Bowden or Bodles.

The 1917 casualty list has "R Bodles"

The Glynn memorial has "Bodles" as the surname but the 1901 and 1911 census have "Bodels" in Glynn and "Bodel" in other parts of Co Antrim.

I think that he is Robert Bodels, age 10,  on the 1901 census in Glynn.

I still cant find a medal card for him but I suspect I've found CR10 cards from 1918-21 for his brothers Thomas and William Bodels from Magheramorne on findmypast.

There is also a CR10 card for a Samuel Bodels from Magheramorne. The photographs of the three men are excellent.

I assume you've already located the CR10 card for William McConnell from Magheramorne which also has an excellent photo.

best wishes

ernestjames

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Hi 

 

Yes Bodles would be a name from the area, there are a number of records of James and Robert sailing on a number of different ships together. I guess it is similar to how things are today, you find good people you work well with you tend to bring them with you to places.

 

I would believe Thomas and William Bodels would be the pair, I believe I met the son of william many many years ago when he would have been an old man.

 

I have not found any of the CR10 records for William, I have only ever found a single photo of him in the 1950's.

 

Thanks

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Hi

From September 1918 the Board of Trade introduced an identity book system, including a passport style photo, for all merchant seamen working from British ports.

They also set up a corresponding central record card system with  photos to keep track of individuals and their voyages. (CR10 cards).

The system was dropped in December 1921.

Around 300,000 CR10 cards have survived including around 40 for Magheramorne born men. These are held at Southampton Archives.

Findmypast have photocopied images of the cards. You can find them under "merchant seamen 1918-41"  and BT 350.

I think its worth a look.

There is more information on my website with some examples.

best wishes

ernestjames

 

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Hi

I don't believe that Southampton Civic Archives are open at the moment so I think its worth looking at findmypast to see whether it suits you.

I'm not up to date on the best way to try them for a limited period for a reasonable cost.

ernestjames.

 

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Thanks for the suggestion, got the trial of find my past which had the CR10 record which was very interesting.  Prompted a bit of discussion about that scar on his face and what may have caused it... 

 

Sadly though FMP doesnt seem to have records of most births/deaths/marriages in NI post 1920 so a lot of records missing, also the marriages etc.. so sadly its a bit of a dead end for my research.

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Hi

I would try and get a scan of the original CR10 card from Southampton once they open. The scar may disappear.

 

You've probably checked "Ireland Merchant Navy crewlists 1863-1921" in fmp

My experience with that database is that most of the ships involved were registered in ports  which, post 1921, were part of the 26 counties.

PRONI in Belfast have crewlists from the same period  which cover  ports from the 6 counties.

 

I have PRONI copies of some of the crewlists for Howden colliers working out of Larne in 1919-20. There are several Magheramorne men listed.

There is also a William McConnell, aged 40 , from Ballycarry, which is close to Magheramorne, RS2 No 103838. Is he a relation? There is a CR10 card for him.

best wishes

ernestjames

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Interestingly despite it being 5 miles apart, they never seemed to like going up the hill to Ballycarry, most of them would have gravitated towards Larne.

 

There was a William McConnell who lived about 5 doors down to James McConnell and who joined the Army in 1914, wounded several times at the Somme and lived to the ripe old age of 100.. yet he was no relation either!

 

I will need to go into the PRONI when they re-open, I've got a fair bit of information up to Robert McConnell who was a MM in the area and was the father of James/William but I have struggled to find his origins.  I suspect either he or his parents came from co. Tyrone, probably around the time of the Hunger, but thats family rumour.

 

Long way to go.

 

Thanks for all the help!

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  • 2 years later...
On 20/04/2021 at 16:58, MerchantOldSalt said:

Captain Henry Arthur Cooper, who had been Master of the ARGUS since 1915, or before, was not a Welshman as stated by the newspaper, he was, like his Mate Herbert Andrew Gunn, born in Great Yarmouth Norfolk, on 23 Jul 1860.  According to their Certificates of Competency HAC was living in South Shields by 1888 and HAG was also in Shields at an address quite close by 1893.  If, as has been said, they also both moved to Penarth then their keeping together in life is probably not a coincidence, possibly a friendship as I cannot find any family connections through marriage, they were both of a similar age.

 

I think this is the wrong way round MB.  In July 1919 the King was pleased to announce that the BWM would be granted to Merchant Seamen, the criteria being 6 months service "at sea" between 1914 and 1918.  In addition, a Mercantile Marine War Medal could be granted to Merchant Seamen provided they first qualified for the BWM, the criteria being a voyage through a danger zone.  It was not automatic, I have found several Merchant Seamen who were awarded the BWM but not the MMWM as their travels did not take them through a danger zone.

 

Whilst it is of no consequence here as the Medal Card for Herbert Gunn the Engineer from Gravesend is not part of this post, I do, however, agree with Ernest James in that the number in the top right hand corner of the card is not a Discharge Book or Certificate Number.  At this time, these numbers were without letter prefixes and were of five, six or seven numerals, much later on a prefix of the letter R was added to British Seaman's discharge book numbers, other letters were added for Seamen who came from other parts of the Empire, eg M for Malta, and S for Singapore.  Whist it appears to be to do with the War Office I do not know what the M/18900/19 number means.

Tony

Intersting info Tony - my great grandfather who also died on the Argos was born in South Shields but moved to Penarth and then Barry before he died. So it looks like there was a "network" of guys from up north who came to South Wales.

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23 hours ago, daveeade said:

Intersting info Tony - my great grandfather who also died on the Argos was born in South Shields but moved to Penarth and then Barry before he died. So it looks like there was a "network" of guys from up north who came to South Wales.

His Name was Thomas Williams and is listed on the 1915 crewlist : https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/143657

 

Not sure about medals - could not find anything.

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Welcome to the forum Dave,

I'm afraid I cannot find much more information on Thomas Williams than you have, beyond that he sailed as engineer on the "Moderator No.4" in 1909.  I suspect this was a dredger or hopper barge

I don't expect he had an Engineer's Certificate of Competency which could be seen at Kew in BT 141/6 as he appears to have been a coasting man and would not have required a "ticket" but you never know. It doesn't look like he applied for any medals that may have been due to him.  

I'm afraid researching Merchant Seamen can be somewhat unrewarding with a dearth of information available and much destroyed.

Tony

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

Welcome to the forum Dave,

I'm afraid I cannot find much more information on Thomas Williams than you have, beyond that he sailed as engineer on the "Moderator No.4" in 1909.  I suspect this was a dredger or hopper barge

I don't expect he had an Engineer's Certificate of Competency which could be seen at Kew in BT 141/6 as he appears to have been a coasting man and would not have required a "ticket" but you never know. It doesn't look like he applied for any medals that may have been due to him.  

I'm afraid researching Merchant Seamen can be somewhat unrewarding with a dearth of information available and much destroyed.

Tony

 

 

 

Thanks Tony.

In the 1881 Census he's recorded as SS Bwllfa as an engineer.

In 1891 he was recorded at Cardiff and in 1891 in Barry ( both South Wales ).

I have nothing then until the 1915 crew lists - so the 1909 one is new ( where did you getthat info from? )

In the 1911 Census he's down as the "head" in Barry ( but not one of the residents ) so I presume he was at sea.

He was 66 when he died - which seems quite old these days, but I presume was not odd 100 years ago.

By the way - I have got a photograth of Thomas that my mum had.

 

 

IMG_1588.JPG

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Nice picture of Thomas Williams,  I cannot find a photo of the ARGUS but there is a profile plan available from Lloyds the ship would have looked very much like the SS ACTIVE attached and of roughly similar size 

I have decided the engineer on the Moderator previously mentioned is not the same T Williams after all.

Tony

 

Active.jpg

Edited by MerchantOldSalt
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