paul guthrie Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 I bought a Grenadier Guards cap badge at Shellhole, was told it was same as Canadian Grenadier Guards, 87 Bn. Think maybe actually they are different. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Hi Paul: Here's the Great War history of the Canadian Grenadier Guards, taken from their web site: Within a week of the declaration of the Great War, the Regiment contributed the first Commanding Officer, 11 officers and 357 Non-commissioned Officers and men to the newly-formed 'Royal Montreal Regiment' (14th Bn CEF). Further contingents were provided to the PPCLI, 13th Bn (RHC), 23rd Bn (RMR), 24th Bn (VRC), and 60th Bn (VRC), all of the CEF. Lieutenant-Colonel Meighen returned from overseas command of the 14th Bn in June, 1915, and announced in September that permission finally had been given to raise an overseas battalion of the Regiment, the 87th Bn CEF. Active recruiting began on 23 October, and in seven weeks the Battalion was raised and ready for its winter training in barracks at St Jean, Quebec. The Battalion was unique in that recruiting had occurred not only in Montreal but throughout Canada (rather than the restricted areas allocated to other CEF Battalions) - it was a thoroughly representative 'Canadian' unit. Use of the title Canadian Grenadier Guards was also different, as the policy had been to not send CEF Battalions overseas with their Militia titles; for the Canadian Grenadiers, special authority was sought from HE The Governor- General, HRH The Duke of Connaught (the Colonel, Grenadier Guards from 1904-42). He authorized additionally the wearing of Grenadier Guards' badges, and through the British Grenadiers, the attachment of an officer and four Drill Sergeants after arrival in England, whose purpose was to prepare the 87th Bn for service in France, and to inculcate Guards traditions within the Regiment. The 87th Battalion entered France on 12 August, 1916, and remained on the continent until 1919. During the War, it earned 17 Honorary Distinctions, and Private J.F. Young was awarded the VC. After the Battle of Vimy Ridge in April, 1917, the increasing difficulty of finding replacements for the English-speaking Battalions from Montreal became acute. (Earlier, the Regiment had raised a second CEF Battalion, the 245th Bn (CGG) which, although it had moved to England did not fight as a unit, its personnel being used to support the 87th Bn; additionally, the 87th Bn had provided earlier, in August, 1916, 300 Grenadiers to the 1st (Ontario) Bn, CEF). Consequently, and to retain the Canadian Grenadiers in the Order of Battle, the decision was made to transfer the remaining personnel of the 60th Bn (VRC) to the 87th Bn. On 22 November, 1918, HM King George V granted the title of 'Guardsman' to Private soldiers of the Brigade of Guards which distinction was extended to the Canadian Grenadiers. On return to Canada in 1919, the 87th Bn was demobilized; its name was perpetuated by the 1st Battalion, The Canadian Grenadier Guards (87th Bn CEF) in 1920. At the same time the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Grenadier Guards (245th Bn CEF) perpetuated the other Great War Battalion of the CEF. With this reorganization, the Regiment lost the ordinal title of 'First Regiment', as numerals for all Regiments (except the R22eR) were discarded. Check them out here. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Paul the two badges were different - I will post some original photos tomorrow to show you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 My mistake - the photo I had was 78th Bn, not 87th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 But you can see from the photo below how different a badge the Grenadier Guards is to the GG of Canada: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 16 March , 2004 Share Posted 16 March , 2004 The 87th Battalion was one of only a handful of CEF cap badges that didn't have their battalion number inscribed on the badge. Sorry, I don't have a picture of the badge, but it's easy to explain the design. The basic design is as shown in Paul Reed's last post; a grenade with seventeen exterior flame points. On the top of the ball of the grenade (near the neck) is the King's Crown. In the middle is the Royal cypher reversed. Below the Royal cypher is the word CANADA. Garth P. S. - The badge pictured in Paul's last post was the also used as the cap badge by the other ranks of the 245th Battalion (Montreal Grenadiers). Officer's cap badges of the 245th Battalion were identical to the 87th Battalion cap badges. Paul's first picture was the 78th Battalion (Winnipeg Grenadiers). There was also the 100th Battalion (Winnipeg Grenadiers) who had a similar cap badge with the number 100 inscribed across the ball of the grenade and the same words 'WINNIPEG GRENADIERS' in the scroll under the ball of the grenade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 16 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2004 Thanks guys, will have to get an 87, what I have is Grenadier Guards. Want it to go with copy of McClintock's book, originals are very hard to find tho it's in reprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 16 March , 2004 Share Posted 16 March , 2004 Hi, I just registered a couple of days ago, and my what a nice surprise to come across a thread about my old regiment ('87-'91). Paul I'm posting a photo of a bronze cap badge used under Queen Elizabeth II which will illustrate Garth's explanation. Garth did the CGG use the royal cipher on the badge during the war? I have my doubts based on a photo from Desmond Morton's book "When your number's up - The Canadian soldier in the First World War". It appears the cap badge is identical to the Grenadier Guards. Perhaps the use of the royal cipher dates from when alliance between the CGG, and GG was formally approved by George V in 1930. I wish I had bought the book "History of the Canadian Grenadier Guards, 1760-1964" when I had the chance. The regiment used to reprint it every-so-often, and I'll bet it would have further details. I must check, and see if they still carry it. Hope this helped Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 16 March , 2004 Share Posted 16 March , 2004 This is the photo I'm referring to - it was taken in early 1915 of a group of guardsmen who were from the contingent supplied from the CGG to make up the 14th battalion CEF. Their cap badges appear to be the same as the Grenadier Guards. The photo is from the Canadian National archives (PA 107237) via Desmond Morton's book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Garth did the CGG use the royal cipher on the badge during the war? Hi Chris: Welcome to the forum. Glad to have you aboard and I'm looking forward to more of your posts. That's the badge. Swap out the Queen's Crown for the King's Crown and the Queen's cipher reversed for the King's cipher reversed and you're bang on. I've just done a quick check in Babin's CEF cap badge book and it's listed as badge E-87. Garth P. S. - You should crop and reduce the size of your Canadian Grenadier Guards cap badge image and use it as your avatar. It's a beauty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 The 87th badge in the Great War was the king's crown badge as discussed earlier. It is impossible to distinguish the CEF badge from the king's crown badge. The collars, however were supposed to be the C/87 pattern, but there is a cypher / annulus pattern collar and a cypher annulus maple leaf pattern. The latter patterns of these are quite scarce. Several years ago I had the "estate" of a sgt killed in action, from the 87th Bn. In it was 3-4 cap badges, all of which had the cypher. The non-cyphered grenader badges still have a regimental and not a generic connection. The number of flames on the grenade are supposed to be unique to the regiment. Eg Princess Louise Fusiliers have say 15 points to the flames while the CGG have 11, etc. (I don't have the exact numbers for each regiment.) In reference to the mobilization of the 87th, as mentioned by Garth, the unit recruiterd extensively in northeastern Ontario. (At the turn of the century, there had been a mining rush and slightly later a "land rush" to the northeast. There was a substantially larger ratio of population in comparison to today. The area was seen as a ripe recruiting area. Not only did the area support local battalions, but units such as the 20th, 34th, 58th and speicalized units like Borden's Battery recruited in the area.) The 87th was another of the units that recruited up the Ottawa valley and through the northeast. Nearly a full company came from this area. A commemorative book with photos of most of the recruits to the 87th was produced. I have seen two of these over the years. Very interesting book. It illustrated the soldiers of the 87th. If someone (maybe David Bluestein) has a copy it could support either argument for or against the cypher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Two images for the discussion. The first is the shoulder title and cap badge from the estate of Sgt Patterson. The second is the 78th and 87th cap badges. Note the different number of flames on the two different grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Thanks guys.Chris I had that book on inter library loan while researching Alexander McClintock. Have you got his book? CEF has reprint with afterword by me, forrward is my research also according to me but I am not credited on it so maybe not. No idea what it said about badge though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Garth, thanks for the welcome aboard! I think this is a great site, with lots of information, especially a number of knowledgeable people when it comes to the CEF, after all getting information about that period isn't very easy in Canada. You mention a book by Babin, could you give me some more details - the only book I ever came across re CEF cap badges was a price book by Charlton (?). I regret I didn't pick it up at the time. Paul I wasn't familiar with McClintock nor his book until I read it on your post. I will have to look for it the next time I'm in Ontario (Quebec bookstores don't seem to carry their books). Ahhh so many books I'd like to buy - I came across a gentleman listing an extraordinary list of books for sale, most about the CEF, and one in particular caught my eye - "The Canadian Grenadier Guards and the first months of the Royal Montreal Regiment in the Great War" by the former C/O F.S. Meighen, published in 1926. I hate to think what type of price would be asked for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Bill those are great pieces! Since no numeral is marked on the cypher, it would seem that the same badge may have been used from 1914 till 1952. Do you know if there is a difference between the CGG cap badges issued during the George V, and VI periods? When I bought my two bronze CGG ones in Ottawa ('99), the store also had a selection of ones with the GR cypher - I merely assumed they were from the George VI period, but now I don't know. They were in good condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Chris no need to go to Ontario, CEF Books http://members.rogers.com/cefbooks/CEFHP.html . Every WW1 book there is terrific, best Ghosts Have Warm Hands tho some prefer Journal of Private Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 You mention a book by Babin, could you give me some more details - the only book I ever came across re CEF cap badges was a price book by Charlton (?). I regret I didn't pick it up at the time. Hi Chris: The book is 'Cap Badges Of The Canadian Expeditionary Forces 1914 - 1919 Illustrated' by Lenard L. Babin. It lists and shows all the CEF cap badges. The illustrations are drawings, not photographs. None the less, it's an excellent reference book. You often see it come up for auction on eBay Canada. Charlton's book is a handy reference tool as well. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 17 March , 2004 Share Posted 17 March , 2004 Thanks Paul for the link; I'll definitely make use of it. I've seen numerous references to Will Bird's book over the years, and will pick up a copy. Actually there's a question dealing with it that I will get around to posting on one of other boards. I like what I've seen in the past of Norm Christie's books, and his series, "For King & Empire", was very well done - on my wishlist to get the DVD version of it. I will have to have a look at Ebay Garth . I have always avoided it in the past. PS Thanks for the tip about the avatar - I got IT to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 18 March , 2004 Share Posted 18 March , 2004 PS Thanks for the tip about the avatar - I got IT to work! Hi Chris: Your avatar looks great. Nice job. I got the three DVD 'For King & Empire' set for Christmas and have played the series through four times now. It's starting to drive my wife crazy!! They should be available on the CEF Books link that Paul posted. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 18 March , 2004 Share Posted 18 March , 2004 Garth, that's the great thing about DVDs, you don't have to worry about wearing them out like tapes. You'll know you're really driving your wife crazy when she recites passages from the series in her sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 18 March , 2004 Share Posted 18 March , 2004 Hi Chris: I was watching episode 2 (The Somme) of the series again last night. Towards the end they showed a picture of the 87th Battalion's Captain Henry Hutton Scott, Canon Scott's son, in uniform and wearing his hat. I paused the DVD to see if I could see the crown and script on the cap badge. I THINK I could see it but can't be positive. I'm going to take the DVD to work next week, do a frame capture and enlarge the image of the badge. Captain Henry Hutton Scott was killed on October 21, 1916 and is buried in the Bapaume Post Military Cemetery. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 19 March , 2004 Share Posted 19 March , 2004 Hi Garth, I look forward to hearing how that turns out. I wonder if the first cap badges issued to the CGG were similar to the Grenadier Guards, especially as the Regiment was originally the Grenadier Guards of Canada, then changed its title in April 1914 to the CGG (the inscription over the front entry is 1st Regiment GG of Canada). Possibly that would explain the badges of the CGG men in the 14th battalion which don't seem to have the Royal Cypher. Did you see "The Killing Ground" when it was on the CBC? That was my first exposure to the CEF, and I remember they had actors to dramatise some of the historic figures in the documentary. The actor who portrayed Canon Scott was very moving when he read Scott's description of being taken to his son's grave on the battlefield. That documentary has stayed with me even though it was on so long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 19 March , 2004 Share Posted 19 March , 2004 Evening all. Further research on the badge question reveals that the king's crown cypher pattern was the badge worn by the 87th Battalion. Both "Overseas" the Lineages and Insignia of the Canadian Expeditionary Force 1914-1919, (Stewart 1970) and Over the Top, The Canadian Infantry in the First World War, (Meek 1971) indicate the cypher pattern badge as the 87th insignia. Stewart illustrates a shoulder bar which I had forgotten about. It is a tablet style title with GRENADIER GUARDS / CANADA. The Grenadier Guards of Canada contributed significantly to the 14th Bn in 1914. This resulted in the regiment not being represented as a unit in the order of battle of the 1st Canadian Division. (Unlike the 13 or 15th Battalions who represented their respective Scots regiments. The senior regiment of the Canadian militia felt some angst over this slight and lobbied to have a CEF affiliated battalion in the orbat of the overseas army.) The Grenadier Guards also raised the 245th Bn. The 245th insignia is represented by a two piece grenade badge, with a cypher overlay on the badge. This has been reported to be an officers badge. There is also reportedly a plain grenade badge with no cypher. This has not been confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 19 March , 2004 Share Posted 19 March , 2004 Thanks for confirming that the King's Crown cypher pattern was the 87th Battalion's cap badge! Bill would you know if there was a difference between the CGG cap badges issued for George V, and George VI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Hi Chris I couldn't find any documentation regarding differences in the patterns of the badges for the CGG in the CEF and later as the militia regiment. I did compare the badges in my collection and they are quite different. Have a look and in particular note the number of flames on each grenade. The badge on the right is from the CEF and the left is a World War Two era badge. This string has educated me!! Sorry about the link but village photo now charges for web posting.CGG BADGES http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-1/1173...uardscefww2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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