chris.wight Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Hi Bill, I appreciate your efforts! Yes they are sublty different - I wonder if the flame point changes were changes made by the Grenadier Guards and copied by the CGG. I find it interesting they decided to simplify the script as well. I would never have guessed they had used different styles for each of the Georges so this is good to know when I finally buy an 87th CEF badge. I've learned a lot too, and can see why collecting things like cap badges can be so interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Here's the DVD frame grab of Captain Henry Hutton Scott. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Here's two images of his cap badge. They're not all that clear regarding the crown and cypher. What do you think? Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Hello Garth, Badge looks very similar to the one on the left in this image. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 23 March , 2004 Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Some further thoughts on Captain Scott's cap badge. As an officer it would likely be a different badge than the or's. The badge would be of better quality and maybe a different finish. In some cases it was a completely different pattern. I would suggest that the CGG may have had officer's badges in gilt, but in World War One, a gilt badge would be like a bull's eye target for a sniper. Officers World War One insignia frequently used chocolate finish and / or various "oxidized" types of finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 23 March , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2004 Alexander McClintock- see below- is the man who found Captain Scott's body for his father Canon Scott. This is described in both their books. Scott is buried in Baupaume Post Cemetery, Albert, with Major John Simon Lewis -see below. An interesting aside about Lewis who was editor of the Montreal Star. His headstone says born Pelosi, Wisconsin USA. His attestation papers say Dubuque, iowa. I have his birth certificate, he was born in Dodgeville, Wisconsin! Explain that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 24 March , 2004 Share Posted 24 March , 2004 Garth I would say Captain Scott's cap badge has the Royal Cypher on it. Great frame grab! Bill maybe you can answer this question. Of the two CGG cap badges I bought, both brass, one (the photo I posted here) is shiny yellow, the other is dull, brownish. Would this be the result of the continual polishing of the badge removing the protective finish? - I'm comparing the badge with brass door handles which have a protective finish until you remove it (as I found out ). Paul I put in an order for McClintock's book, Will Bird's too, and keeping my fingers crossed that it's still available - a used book on the Currie libel trial. As for Major Lewis' birth place, I guess that will remain a mystery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 24 March , 2004 Share Posted 24 March , 2004 Chris, What you describe sounds like the effects of polishing. However many other things can lead to a badge changing colour. Exposing the badge to fumes of certain chemicals, being buried, contact with other metals, the composition of the brass used for stiking, oxidization, etc, can all lead to different colours in the badge. As you indicate the protective overcoating, once removed allows for significant changes in the badge. One point, the amount of polishing used to remove the coating or original finish would usually show in wear on the badge high points as well. Brass once polished does take on the brown colour that you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 24 March , 2004 Share Posted 24 March , 2004 Thanks for the explanation Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 24 March , 2004 Share Posted 24 March , 2004 Hi Garth, What program did you use for the frame grab? Thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 25 March , 2004 Share Posted 25 March , 2004 Hi Garth, What program did you use for the frame grab? Thanks Bill Hi Bill: I work for a company that produces two daily newspapers in Vancouver. The publishing end of the business uses only Macintosh computers. I got the image off a Macintosh G4 running OS X (Panther) and the application Snapz Pro v1.0.9. The interesting thing about DVD's is you can't do a screen capture of a paused DVD image; it comes out looking warped and blurred. You need an application that will take the paused image out of the video RAM. That's were Snapz Pro come into play. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 25 March , 2004 Share Posted 25 March , 2004 Thanks Garth. A little out of my league for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 28 March , 2004 Share Posted 28 March , 2004 A twist. More research indicates that the British Grenadier Guards wore the plain grenade badge for or's below the rank of sergeant. Sergeants and above wore the cypher badge with the Imperial crown. There is a strong possibility that the Canadian Grenadier Guards practiced the same. In my earlier posts I indicated that my example came from a sergeant, but I have no conclusive evidence that the or's cap badge was non-cypher or included the cypher. It is likely that the 87th CGG did wear the version of badge with CANADA under the cypher, but if they wore the plain grenade badge, it would not have CANADA. Interesting that a badge has shown up on ebay, attributed to the 87th, but I believe it to be the Imperial badge. Ebay Grendier Guard badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 29 March , 2004 Share Posted 29 March , 2004 The plot thickens! Good detective work Bill, and interesting. So if the other ranks' badge was non-cyphered, it would be impossible to tell the difference between one from the Canadian Grenadier Guards, and the Grenadier Guards. With luck the William Scully site will adds some CGG designs in the future - if they produced badges for them. The badge on Ebay looks great - how much would a capbadge like that go for? The WW2 Canadian Fusiliers one is decent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 29 March , 2004 Share Posted 29 March , 2004 There is a strong possibility that the Canadian Grenadier Guards practiced the same. In my earlier posts I indicated that my example came from a sergeant, but I have no conclusive evidence that the or's cap badge was non-cypher or included the cypher. It is likely that the 87th CGG did wear the version of badge with CANADA under the cypher, but if they wore the plain grenade badge, it would not have CANADA. Interesting that a badge has shown up on ebay, attributed to the 87th, but I believe it to be the Imperial badge. Hi Bill: Babin only lists one badge for the CGG (E-87), one for the 78th Bn. Winnipeg Grenadiers (E-78), one for the 100th Bn. Winnipeg Grenadiers (E-100), but for the 245 Bn. Montreal Grenadiers he lists a plain badge for OR's (E-245) and a badge like the 87th's (E-245A) for Officers. Of course Babin isn't the be all and end all for CEF cap badges. In the end you may be right; a plain badge was used for OR's of the 87th Battalion. It would be nice to nail this one down. I agree with you, the item listed on eBay isn't an 87th cap badge. However, someone will buy it as such for between $25 to $40 US. Why don't you post an inquiry, on the listed badge, in a new thread and see if any of the UK Pals can properly identify it? Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 2 April , 2004 Share Posted 2 April , 2004 The cap badge on Ebay went for $16.50 so someone got a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 6 July , 2004 Share Posted 6 July , 2004 Of interest to this string is an auction on ebay for a Canadian Grenadier Guards collar badge. I have no connection to the vendor. ebay auction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 6 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2004 Well speaking of Captain HH Scott, I guess you have read his father's fine book, The Great War As I Saw It, he describes going to the Somme battlefield just before 4th Div left, it was the last, to look for his son's body. Well the hair stood on my neck when I read Alexander McClintock's book - see below - and realized he was the man who found the buried body! Tho Scott was possibly the best known man in the Canadian Army AM did not know who he was, just an old padre to him, he wanted to help out. I believe he would have had a bar to his DCM if John Simon Lewis had survived the battle for Desire Trench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Alexander Posted 27 August , 2004 Share Posted 27 August , 2004 As a follow up to this string, a 245th Bn Canadian Grenadier Guards cap badge is being offered on ebay. Note the brass cypher overlay. Some opinions suggest that these are officers. 245th Canadian Grenadier Guards (I have no connectio with the seller.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 27 August , 2004 Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Thanks for the post, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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