RWK to RGA to RE Captain A.D. Fosbraey

[Jim Hastings]

Dear All, let me introduce myself, I'm Jim Hastings and new to the forum. This is an amazing site and I have learnt so much from just general searches so far. I seek some assistance/guidance if any one can help or point me in the right direction.

I'm former Royal Artillery and when my late aunt forwarded me a photocopy of my Grandfather's Statement Of Service I was humbled to find that he had been a Gunner too. Tracing our family tree for our young son I decided to look more into my Grandfathers military service, and having traced his MIC I discovered that he had four Army Numbers!! Family myth was that he had been an infantryman in the trenches where he caught malaria and he married his OC's daughter (which I must admith I was sceptical about).Here is a brief summary from his Statement of Service:

Arthur Robert PAGE (born 11/03/98 in Bloomsbury London)

• 17/06/16 joins Royal West Kents in Maidstone, posted to 9th Bn on 23rd (So the infantry part proved correct initially) Army Number G/16093
• 01/09/16 22nd Training Reserve Bn Army Number 5182
• 18/12/16 tranferred to Heavy Artillery Depot
• 01/02/17 posted to 178 Bty RGA as a Gunner Army Number 141844 (but this number, on his MIC, seems to have been issued to another Gunner at a later date!)
• 08/02/17 posted to 222 Bty RGA - I have discovered these were both Seige Btys and were in France/Flanders
• 28/10/17 posted to Hvy Art Sig Sect of RE with rank of Driver

RE records then seem to take affect and he is given the Army Number 354120

He was demobbed at Chatham in Dec 1919 so he seems to have transferred to the RE properly at some point. Ironically, my sceptism was misplaced - his father-in-law was Captain AD Fosbraey of the Royal Engineers (possibly a career soldier as he was not on the 1901 Census and I've yet to confirm but he may have won the MC in WW1) , so maybe he did marry his OCs daughter!!!

My queries are this if anyone can assist-

1. Was it usual for soldiers to move between Regiments/ Corps this way?
2. I have served in areas where Malaria is a concern, but was it a problem in France/Flanders (please excuse my ignorance)?
3. I understand that the RE were responsible for signalling in WW1, beyond Bn level, so were RGA Brigade signallers absorbed into the RE at some time, or did my Grandfather get transferred/posted there out of military necessity or his own vocation?
4. Is there any record of 222 Bty War Service, I have, so far, only located 222 Bty on one memorial, for a period after my Grandfather left? Are there any images of 222 Bty knwon at all?
5. Is Driver not a Gunner rather than Sapper rank, so when he was with the Hvy Art Sig Sect RE was he still a Gunner attached to the RE?

In my quest I have looked at many other Army Records and few soldiers seem to have changed cap badge this many times. My Grandfather's service records are not on line, just his MIC with these Regt details and Army Numbers. Strangely his RWK number, G16093 has not been scribed out on his Statement of Service and replaced with any of the other numbers.

I'm very proud of my Grandfather's service, and would like to understand it more fully if anyone could help. I'd really like to get to know 222 Btys war too, so one day I can take my son to see where his Great Grandfather fought.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated

Thank you

Jim

[ororkep]

Jim,

Welcome to the forum.

One of the things I have recently noticed since the huge increase in members since 11-11-08, posts are moving very fast from the first page of this category (and Soldiers) and thus are in danger of being missed (administrators take heed, perhaps a sub category split is now required; as it never used to be like this).

Such a detailed first post deserves replies although I can only assist in a small way with the RGA part of it.

His time with 178 Sge Bty was so short that he is not recorded in either of the two nominal rolls associated with this battery, one taken at the start of the war and one after the armistice. This is from the book ‘178 Siege Battery’ by N&M currently on special offer for about £5, and a good read of a typical 6 in Howitzer Sge Bty.

You however will learn more pertaining to your man from the surviving war diary for 222 Sge Bty, that is held at the NA under their reference WO95/476, and covers from August 1916 to August 1917. This was a 4 x 6 in Gun (Mk VII) Battery that served on the western front from 05-02-1917, so he was just about an original member. His remaining RGA service with 222 Sge Bty until Oct 1917 will be covered in the higher formation HAG diary that they were part of at the time (Heavy Artillery Group), which was 32 HAG (Brigade). This also survives and can be found at NA ref WO95/389.

I would politely suggest these war diaries as your starting point and wish you good luck with your research, but do not expect to find a direct mention of him.

Rgds Paul

PS Malaria was not a problem generally associated with this theatre of war

[Jim Hastings]

Jim,

Welcome to the forum.

One of the things I have recently noticed since the huge increase in members since 11-11-08, posts are moving very fast from the first page of this category (and others) and thus are in danger of being missed (administrators take heed, perhaps a sub category split is now required); It never used to be like this.

Such a detailed first post deserves replies although I can only assist in a small way with the RGA part of it.

His time with 178 Sge Bty was so short that he is not recorded in either of the two nominal rolls associated with this battery, one taken at the start of the war and one after the armistice. This is from the book '178 Siege Battery' by N&M currently on special offer for about £5, and a good read of a typical 6 in Howitzer Sge Bty.

You however will learn more pertaining to your man from the surviving war diary for 222 Sge Bty, that is held at the NA under their reference WO95/476, and covers from August 1916 to August 1917. This was a 4 x 6 in Gun (Mk VII) Battery that served on the western front from 05-02-1917, so he was just about an original member. His remaining RGA service with 222 Sge Bty until Oct 1917 will be covered in the higher formation HAG diary that they were part of at the time (Heavy Artillery Group), which was 32 HAG (Brigade). This also survives and can be found at NA ref WO95/389.

I would politely suggest these war diaries as your starting point and wish you good luck with your research, but do not expect to find a direct mention of him.

Rgds Paul

PS Malaria was not a problem generally associated with this theatre of war

Thank you Paul, for the welcome and the information, I'll certainly take things forward. I've learnt some more about how he ended up in the RGA thanks to The Long, Long Trail - as a conscript, which I think I believe he was, he had no choice where he was to be posted (to the RWKs in his case) then in Sep 1916 training was revolutionised and Training Reserves set up and they sent men where they were urgently needed (in his case the RGA) - sorry, you must know all this already. I have learnt that the 9th (reserve) Bn RWK was absorbed into the Training Reserve Bn of the 5th Reserve Brigade based in Shoreham - coincidentally where the No 1 Reserve Brigade (Seige) was based. Further searching of this forum has taught me that RGA soldiers were often intelligent men, and my relatives have always stressed how bright my Grandfather was, so maybe he was ear marked for signals training or saw an opportunity for himself? Likewise, I remember in my Basic, those recruits with the highest entrance scores went for Signals training instead of driving and gunnery. The picture is getting clearer, thank you very much for your help!! This is an exceptional forum!!

Didn't think malaria was a problem there, I think I'll try to find more about his symptoms and see if they match any other ailment more associated with the theatre.

Thank you again

Regards

Jim

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Jim

Just to add a few points to what Paul has said:

Transfers between corps were not all that rare, especially to the more "scientific" corps. Each such posting required the allocation of a new service number as these were allotted on a regimental/corps basis, not the single Army-wide numbers which you will know from your own service. "Driver" was a rank in the RE and the ASC and was not peculiar to the RFA or RGA.

It certainly seems likely that your grandfather was trained as a signaller, operating firstly at RGA Battery level with the basic equipment, and then moving to the other end of the line, so to speak, to the more technical work of the RE signal service. The latter always needed trained men so it is not surprising that they "cherry-picked" from unit signallers.

There is a book "The Signal Service (France)" by Major R E Priestley, published jointly by the RE Institution and the newly-formed Signals Institution in about 1921. Copies may be difficult to find but you may be able to get one through the inter-library loan service, and it is written in a non-technical and readable style.

On the "intelligence" point, my father, a teacher, served in the Royal Corps of Signals in WW2 so there may be something in it!

Ron

[Jim Hastings]

Hello Jim

Just to add a few points to what Paul has said:

Transfers between corps were not all that rare, especially to the more "scientific" corps. Each such posting required the allocation of a new service number as these were allotted on a regimental/corps basis, not the single Army-wide numbers which you will know from your own service. "Driver" was a rank in the RE and the ASC and was not peculiar to the RFA or RGA.

It certainly seems likely that your grandfather was trained as a signaller, operating firstly at RGA Battery level with the basic equipment, and then moving to the other end of the line, so to speak, to the more technical work of the RE signal service. The latter always needed trained men so it is not surprising that they "cherry-picked" from unit signallers.

There is a book "The Signal Service (France)" by Major R E Priestley, published jointly by the RE Institution and the newly-formed Signals Institution in about 1921. Copies may be difficult to find but you may be able to get one through the inter-library loan service, and it is written in a non-technical and readable style.

On the "intelligence" point, my father, a teacher, served in the Royal Corps of Signals in WW2 so there may be something in it!

Ron

Excellent, thank you Ron, especially for clearing up the Number issue and the "Driver" rank. I find it even more ironic that not only were my Grandfather and I in the same Regiment (although in those days I would have been in the RFA I suppose) we both had the same trade - strange to think we both laid line and used field telephones!! Would he have spent time on the OPs too? Now that would be too much of a coincidence!!

This is so interesting. Thank you for your help and time.

Jim

[kevinrowlinson]

Hi Jim,

I cannot add much, exept to say Gunner Page's number is the correct one. The other gunners number is wrong, and should have another 1 after it.

I find the malaria reference interesting... of course it would make perfect sense if he had been sent to 178 Heavy Battery and 202 Heavy Battery. It definitely has SB and not HB after the battery number?

Kevin

[Jim Hastings]

Hi Jim,

I cannot add much, exept to say Gunner Page's number is the correct one. The other gunners number is wrong, and should have another 1 after it.

I find the malaria reference interesting... of course it would make perfect sense if he had been sent to 178 Heavy Battery and 202 Heavy Battery. It definitely has SB and not HB after the battery number?

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for clearing the other Gunner's Number up issue, as for the malaria reference his Statement of Service has: "RGA - 178 Hy posted Gunner 01/02/17" followed by "RGA - 222 Hvy posted Gunner 08/02/1917" - From research I could only find a 222 Bty that was a Siege Bty so assumed that was the Bty my Grandfather was in was a siege one. To be honest the word "siege" does not appear on his Statement of Service. The "222 Hvy" is very faintly written, made worse by the photocopying, and typically the middle "2" is bisected by one of the document grid lines - I don't think it could be a "0" though, if not a "2" maybe a "3" (ie 232 Hvy) - Do you think he was not in France at all? This is so intriguing!!! If he served in the Middle East the family service coincidence would be just too much!!

Thank you again

Regards

Jim

[Terry_Reeves]

Jim

It is a bit of a conundrum. His MIC shows that he was entitled to the British War and Victory Medals with the RE, so he could not have served overseas in a theatre of war until at least 1916. There does not appear to be another card which would deny this. His date of birth , 1898, would indicate qualification for overseas service on the grounds of age only, as 1917 or 1918, depending on his birthday

I am not convinced he had a signals qualifiction, indeed, the fact that he is listed as Driver makes this unlikely. Qualified signallers were at a premium throughout much of the war and the RE Signals Service was reorganised on three occasions to take into account the increasing importance of this. This would make it unlikely that a man would be allowed to leave this trade without some very good reason.

With regards to malaria on the Western Front, it was in fact a problem, although perhaps not a prevelant one. I have a number of medical records for BEF soldiers which relate to this. The following article may well be of interest and confirm this.

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/gre...in-the-war.html

TR

[Jim Hastings]

Jim

It is a bit of a conundrum. His MIC shows that he was entitled to the British War and Victory Medals with the RE, so he could not have served overseas in a theatre of war until at least 1916. There does not appear to be another card which would deny this. His date of birth , 1898, would indicate qualification for overseas service on the grounds of age only, as 1917 or 1918, depending on his birthday

I am not convinced he had a signals qualifiction, indeed, the fact that he is listed as Driver makes this unlikely. Qualified signallers were at a premium throughout much of the war and the RE Signals Service was reorganised on three occasions to take into account the increasing importance of this. This would make it unlikely that a man would be allowed to leave this trade without some very good reason.

With regards to malaria on the Western Front, it was in fact a problem, although perhaps not a prevelant one. I have a number of medical records for BEF soldiers which relate to this. The following article may well be of interest and confirm this.

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/gre...in-the-war.html

TR

Many thanks Terry,

I have triple checked with my relatives and he did have recurring bouts of malaria throughout his life. No one remembers a theatre of operations, he used to say he just been "in the trenches". He has a rank "Pms" or "Pma" while with the RE Hvy Art Sig Sect - does this mean anything to anyone? Looks like he was posted into the RE from the RGA as a "Driver". Much of the Statement of Service after that is so faint but I can make out " ---- Sig Depot ... --35 ...28/03/1918"

Sadly I was too young to know him well, and his generation did not talk of their service

Thank you for your help

Jim

[ororkep]

Then could it not be 202 Hvy Bty, as there was no 212, 222 or 232.

178 Hvy and 202 Hvy were together at Charlton Park.

And that would explain the malaria family myth as 202 served in the EEF Egypt, going out in May 1917 from Marseilles (4 x 60 pdrs) .

The plot thickens...

Rgds Paul

[kevinrowlinson]

Jim

I do not have any problem with his MIC. You should, however, get a copy of the relevant medal roll page to make sure. The number sequence would be as you have listed them. Although being with and on the RE medal roll, the RGA is mentoned first because that was the number he first went overseas with, and engraved on his medal.

Like other men who were transferred at that time, and men conscripted directly to the RGA, he was sent to the Heavy Artillery Depot, Woolwich. Because of this their first posting is nearly always to a heavy battery. As far as I know 178 HB never left England, but men were then posted on to other batteries, some of which may have been a siege battery. 202nd Heavy Battery was just a hunch, as they left Southampton on the 26 April 1917 and arrived Alexandria at the start of May, and where he was most likely to have contracted malaria. He may have been a driver in the RGA , but rather than be sent to a RGA signal school, he was transferred to a RE. Even on the MIC he is still ranked as gunner rather that sapper which is another mistake.

If you are interested, and I think is still free at the moment on Ancestry, have a look at a couple of gunners records which would give you an idea of how he may have served.

105557 Barr, William Edgar

141840 Nelson, Percy Richard (look under 14545 RWK Regiment)

Posting a copy of the relevant section showing the 2?2 part may be interesting. Someone may be able to read it.

Kevin

EDIT: Paul you beat me to it.

[Jim Hastings]

Jim

I do not have any problem with his MIC. You should, however, get a copy of the relevant medal roll page to make sure. The number sequence would be as you have listed them. Although being with and on the RE medal roll, the RGA is mentoned first because that was the number he first went overseas with, and engraved on his medal.

Like other men who were transferred at that time, and men conscripted directly to the RGA, he was sent to the Heavy Artillery Depot, Woolwich. Because of this their first posting is nearly always to a heavy battery. As far as I know 178 HB never left England, but men were then posted on to other batteries, some of which may have been a siege battery. 202nd Heavy Battery was just a hunch, as they left Southampton on the 26 April 1917 and arrived Alexandria at the start of May, and where he was most likely to have contracted malaria. He may have been a driver in the RGA , but rather than be sent to a RGA signal school, he was transferred to a RE. Even on the MIC he is still ranked as gunner rather that sapper which is another mistake.

If you are interested, and I think is still free at the moment on Ancestry, have a look at a couple of gunners records which would give you an idea of how he may have served.

105557 Barr, William Edgar

141840 Nelson, Percy Richard (look under 14545 RWK Regiment)

Posting a copy of the relevant section showing the 2?2 part may be interesting. Someone may be able to read it.

Kevin

EDIT: Paul you beat me to it.

Gents this is all excellent stuff, thank you for all the time and effort you have all taken on my behalf and I will certainly be taking things forward, and will report back my findings. I have tried to look up his service record on line, so far in vain - I know some were destroyed in the Blitz but I'm assuming there must be something somewhere as my late aunt obviously photocopied the Statement of Service document from somewhere. Will set some time aside to get up to the NA and dig deep. I must say it is great to know that there are people like you keeping the memory of the Great War alive, as it deserves to be!!

Interesting points about mistakes made administratively at the time - still goes on: my last Troop Commander wrote my final confidential for my Red Book thinking I was my room mate!!

My appreciations

Regards

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

Jim

I do not have any problem with his MIC. You should, however, get a copy of the relevant medal roll page to make sure. The number sequence would be as you have listed them. Although being with and on the RE medal roll, the RGA is mentoned first because that was the number he first went overseas with, and engraved on his medal.

Like other men who were transferred at that time, and men conscripted directly to the RGA, he was sent to the Heavy Artillery Depot, Woolwich. Because of this their first posting is nearly always to a heavy battery. As far as I know 178 HB never left England, but men were then posted on to other batteries, some of which may have been a siege battery. 202nd Heavy Battery was just a hunch, as they left Southampton on the 26 April 1917 and arrived Alexandria at the start of May, and where he was most likely to have contracted malaria. He may have been a driver in the RGA , but rather than be sent to a RGA signal school, he was transferred to a RE. Even on the MIC he is still ranked as gunner rather that sapper which is another mistake.

If you are interested, and I think is still free at the moment on Ancestry, have a look at a couple of gunners records which would give you an idea of how he may have served.

105557 Barr, William Edgar

141840 Nelson, Percy Richard (look under 14545 RWK Regiment)

Posting a copy of the relevant section showing the 2?2 part may be interesting. Someone may be able to read it.

Kevin

EDIT: Paul you beat me to it.

Kevin,

Having reviewed the record of Nelson, PR. I was left amazed to think that my grandfather probably knew this man. The handwriting on both their Statement Of Services is identical until my grandfather is posted to 178 Hy Bty. Good to know my grandfather went to Woolwich and we marched on the same parade ground.

Amazing!

Thanks again

Jim

[Stebie9173]

Captain Fosbraey does not appear to have been awarded the MC in WW1 since his relinquishment of his commission doesn't show the award:

From the London Gazette 30-12-1919

CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned relinquish their commss. on completion of service: —

Temp. Capts.—And retain the rank of Capt.: —

H. F. (Carroll. 19tli Nov. 1919.

G. S. Collings. 19th Nov. 1919.

J. G. Eggar. 16th Nov. 1919.

A. D. Fosbraey. 7th Nov; 1919.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

Earlier movements:

LG 6-12-1917

CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned to be temp. Capts.:—

Temp. Lt. A. J. Kay. 18th Sept. 1917, with seniority next below temp. Capt. J. T. Argent.

Temp. Capt. W. G. Collingwood, from Training Res. 17th Oct. 1917.

Temp. Capt. J. T. Dawson, from Sco. Rif. 16th Nov. 1917.

Temp. Capt. A. D. Fosbraey, from Gen. List. 7th Dec. 1917.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

His Medal Card states an address at a PO Box in Johannesburg (as of 1922 when his medals were claimed), so he may have been living in South Africa before the war, and may have indeed stayed there after the Boer War?

Steve.

[Neil Clark]

Thought I'd pitch in on this very interesting thread and mention SALONIKA (Salonica) where nearly all casualties resulted from Malaria. Would the fact your man caught Marlaria indicate service with the M.E.F at some stage? Marlaria was never endemic in Egypt or Palastine.

[Stebie9173]

There was a fairly serious outbreak of Malaria in at least 54th Division in Palestine in October 1918, so not impossible....

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Having said Andrew David Fosbraey he didn't win the M.C. ...........

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/roya...-1-c-2mucm3igm6

He is also mentioned here as part of the South African Mounted Brigades in German East Africa:

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40117/59401.html

1st Mounted Brigade HQ:

1st H.Q. Capt Fosbraey A.D. Invalided 19/12/1916

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I'd like to put this service record page forward for consideration of a similarly numbered ex-RGA man (from a differebt battery perhaps) - Jack Bernard Egerton, No. 354181 - who transferred to the R.E. of 20th Corps in Palestine. This man was also contracted malaria in October 1918.....

I'm not saying that these are the movements of Arthur Page as well, but it does seem a coincidence that much of what has been surmised above fits this record.

There is also mention of service with 61 Air Line section (i.e. telegraph pole phone line maintenance).

Incidentally, "P" for Page isn't online yet as part of the WO363 service records upload, so his records may well be about at the NA, but just not available online.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Having posted the above, I'll contradict myself with an extract from 354122 William Eastwood's record, which suggests a later date:

Steve.

[Jim Hastings]

Having said Andrew David Fosbraey he didn't win the M.C. ...........

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/roya...-1-c-2mucm3igm6

He is also mentioned here as part of the South African Mounted Brigades in German East Africa:

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40117/59401.html

1st Mounted Brigade HQ:

1st H.Q. Capt Fosbraey A.D. Invalided 19/12/1916

Steve.

Hi Steve,

Must admit that auction quote is the only basis I supposed he earned the MC, was planning to look into it more. The African war information is wonderful - the family remember many line drawings of antelopes reputedly made by my grandfather, but maybe they were made by my great grandfather - Is there a website to check Boer War service? I wonder, if in the HQ, he was an attached RE officer? There is family rumour that he worked in gold mines in SA before the war. He must have been a self made man to earn himself a Commission - his family back in Kent were papermill operatives, not the recruiting ground for Cavalry or RE officers I think?

Thank you for all of your efforts, this forum is definitely opening up the lives of my grandfather and great grandfather

Regards

Jim

[Stebie9173]

A more detailed image of 354122 William Eastwood's transfer. These men seem to be transferring to R.E. around the time of their attachment to the RGA Signal Sections....

Steve.

[Jim Hastings]

Having said Andrew David Fosbraey he didn't win the M.C. ...........

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/roya...-1-c-2mucm3igm6

He is also mentioned here as part of the South African Mounted Brigades in German East Africa:

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40117/59401.html

1st Mounted Brigade HQ:

1st H.Q. Capt Fosbraey A.D. Invalided 19/12/1916

Steve.

I have just found a Capt David Fosbraey listed in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 22 Aug 1918 as being part of the South African Field Post and Telegraph Corps which existed between 1914 amd 1919 and was the fore runner to their Signals Corps. I can get no family confirmation whether he was known as David or Andrew. But if he was invalided from Africa in late 1916, he may have been sent back to the UK, where, with his trade he would have been posted to the RE Signals, hence he may have been AR Page's father-in-law in the long run!!

The record sheets comparable to AR Page have given me further insight too, and I'm very grateful for all of your effort

Regards

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

Evening all,

I am no expert on medals, although have picked up some things while on the forum. My very first post was about my grandfather and great-grandfather, and the belief he held the MC, solely from the following:

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/royal-engineers-military-cross.-a-great-war-exam-1-c-2mucm3igm6

There seems to be no other evidence that he was awarded it. The only other connection was that it was brought to auction in the very area in Buckinghamshire where his wife and daughters were staying during the war - he was in South Africa at war's outbreak, served with the SA contingent in SW Africa and then with the RE Signals Service. He had risen through the ranks and had been an RE L/Cpl during the Boer War. But I cannot find any evidence that Capt Andrew David Fosbraey earned this decoration. Can medal experts amongst you please point me in the right direction for proving/disproving this?

 

But I just wonder where best to confirm/deny its award. If it is genuine, has anyone come across it from the above auction or their medal interest?

Any advice gratefully received

Many thanks

Jim

[ss002d6252]

If the award was made then the London Gazette should show the official announcement of the award, if its not in their its very unlikely to have awarded.

I can't see any record of it in the gazette.

[David B]

If it is any help the MIC for Andrew David Fosbraey does not indicate that the MC was awarded to him, only the usual trio 14-15 star, BWM and VM.