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N White

RAF Marked 1907 bayonet

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N White

I went to a local show today and picked up this 1907 for a bargain. I'm pretty sure the markings are for the RAF, but I would appreciate confirmation, and further information, like what the 1 D is for. Thanks!

Nick

post-38182-1223750239.jpg

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Richie B

Nick

Certainly Royal Air Force.

1D - 1st Depot ??? - a wild guess.

Richie

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Pte1643

To be fair, I can't help with the 1D bit.

But I've got one too, only mine has 1A on it...

DSCF0946.jpg

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paulowen

I've also got an RAF bayonet; "1F 2103" and dated 1918 with an illegible month .

It came with a US style scabbard when I bought it aged 11 for £7.50 from the same antique shop that also provided my coal-scuttle-converted M1916 Stahlhelm for a fiver. It also saw plenty of use in mock sword fights with younger brothers since (no injuries!).

Are RAF bayonets all that rare? Maybe I got a bargain in my youth!

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N White

This one is an 11/18 Sanderson. Looking at it next to some of my others I realized something I had missed before- it's still bright finished. (Albeit a bit dirty). I'm even happier with it now- if only if it was a hooker could it be better!

post-38182-1223761972.jpg

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findabetterole

Nick... nice bayonet you have there.

Your '07's markings are for the R.A.F, but contrary to what has been mentionerd, marking of this type are by no means rare. They turn up on a regular basis.. every few months or so.

The bright finish upon the blade is quite normal also. I find that the rarest finist is that of sandblasted. Has the blades right ricasso any re-issue stampings?

Seph

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N White

Seph-

The only marks on the ricassos are the standard ones with model date and maker, and on the other side the broad arrow, the bend x, and 3 inspection stampings. No big '20 or such to be found anywhere, happily.

Do you have a picture of the sandblast finish, so I know what to keep an eye out for in the future?

Also, (sorry to keep throwing the questions at you), what are some of the examples of rare markings?

As a bonus to all this, at the same show I picked up a Remington made Lebel bayonet as well. A very good day indeed!

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per ardua per mare per terram

The RAF had over 300,000 serving with it in 1918. I have no idea how many airfields they had to mount guards over. That adds up to a huge stockpile of weapons.

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4thGordons
The RAF had over 300,000 serving with it in 1918. I have no idea how many airfields they had to mount guards over. That adds up to a huge stockpile of weapons.

As a general rule I think one could say:

Unit marked bayonets are more infrequently encountered than non unit marked bayonets.

Amongst the unit marked bayonets - the larger the unit the more likely they are to be encountered.

As most unit markings are done at the battalion level (1000 individuals give or take) the size of the RAF (noted above) may indicate the relative frequency with which they appear.

[Seph: have you seen bayonets marked to the ASC or RA? I do not believe I have - these would presumably be a challenger to the RAF in terms of size]

The other markings which appear with some frequency are the various Australian "Military Districts" usually in the form 2nd M.D. etc given the frequency with which these seem to show up I assume a large number of rifles were involved there too.)

In terms of value I would suggest (all other features and conditions being equal):

A unit marked bayonet will go for a little more than a non unit marked one - but this differential will increase (sometimes exponentially) with the cache of the particular unit... obscure or little known cadet or OTC markings (although they might be small units and thus "scarce") seem to be of little interest to collectors, whilst major regiments attract more attention (and thus $$).

This is complicated by the issue of the maker (rare vs more common) - so a Vickers produced bayonet would likely sell for more than a unit marked (with the caveat above) Sanderson or Wilkinson; and a unit marked Vickers would command a premium.

On top of all this there is the question of reissue dates (which is a concern to collectors but not, I must admit, to me.... to me it signifies "real" service)

and above all general "Condition" of the bayonet.

And on top of this (at least if ebay and other sites are a guide!) stick "lithgow" on it and it doubles the asking price and goes far beyond a scarcity premium.....which I don't really understand but then I am only an "accidental" bayonet collector!

There are odditities and variations which are really only of concern to specialists - like the particular month of production etc and is unlikely to affect asking price outside of sellers catering to a specialized pool of buyers - or things like Siamese contract blades....

Chris

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findabetterole

Chris.. you've brought up a couple of valid points in reference to what is rare and what is common.

In reference to the Australian issued and used items, I have three Lithgows in my collection = 1916, 17, 18, and all have the military district stamped on the side of the crossguard. So, as an assumption , and taking my three items = 100%.. the stamping of the military district is very common practice. It is also seen on WW2 examples, along with the standard MA & OA.

Unit stamped '07's are a very fluid subgect for serious collectors. Personally, it makes no matter if the bayonet is unit stamped or not, for my interest is with the manufacturer, then if its a clearance hole example or not, followed by the issue date, then condition.

As for rarety of manufacturer or type... the Siamese has to be the rarest beast there is. Rarety is another fluid subgect, for most collectors would say the manufacturer: Mole is top. For me. not so, nor Vickers, for I have purchased 6 Vickers this year so far. In my view, Remington is the rarer, due to the fact that 10 Vickers and 5 Mole will appear for sale before a single Remington. The production ratio of Remington to Vickers is 10-to-1 in favour of Remington, yet the appearance rastio is reverced.

Another good example of rarety, is with both Wilkinson and Chapman. For WW1, Wilkinson stamped the ricasso equally as Wilkinson and Wilkinson Pall Mall, yet 10 Wilkinson will appear before one of the latter. Chapman stamped equally as Chapman and JAC, yet the appearance ration is about the same as Wilkinson, with JAC being the rarer variation.

With reference to the actual units mentioned = ASC, RA.. no, I have never come across a single example of either, yet they were two of the largest Corps. However, that does not mean that examples do not exist. The stamping of RM, I have only seen twice during the length of my collecting career, and I purchased one of those.

To summerise.. a bayonets rarety, does not mean the same thing to two separate individuals. What one person will swoon over as a 'must have item', another will not give the item a second glance.

Seph

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N White

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the information. I think for me the biggest draw for 1907s is regimental markings. Not to say that if I find a non clearance hole item or something similarly desirable I won't buy it if it is not regimentally marked, but among otherwise common examples, I like regimentally marked, and if marked and low priced I will pick it up when I otherwise wouldn't. I'm very interested in the history of an item, and the marks for me add another very appealing dimension. Oddly enough, I actively collect by makers for french bayonets, but not for British.

Of course I may be spoiled for regimental markings as my 1st 1907 was marked to the RSF. It was very exciting to find out it had seen service with a well known unit, I think each new one I see marked brings back that feeling!

Thank you all

Nick

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per ardua per mare per terram

When the RAF was formed it was very jealous of its new status and also were using mostly army kit; hence their tendency to mark for the entire service.

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59165

Here's my RAF one.

rafbayo2.jpg

rafbayop.jpg

Dated 1918/19.Swap from a mate.

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59165

& a JAC hooky,stamped to the Northant's

PICT0496.jpg

PICT0488.jpg

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4thGordons
& a JAC hooky,stamped to the Northant's

I think this is called Seph Bait! :D

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findabetterole
I think this is called Seph Bait! :D

Hmmm! you know me too well Chris :ph34r:

59165... might one enquire as to how long the superb hooky has been in ones posession? Ebay win wasn't it?

seph

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4thGordons

I reckon Seph baiting might become the next Olympic sport....

Couldn't let this one pass after: "As for rarety of manufacturer or type... the Siamese has to be the rarest beast there is"

Don't have a hooky, don't have a Vickers but do have.....

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findabetterole
I reckon Seph baiting might become the next Olympic sport....

OK!... That's it!... you've just hit the nail right on the center!.. :(

Your officially off my christmas list... if I can remember to make one :wacko:

Very nice trio there Chris.. I'm officialy envious! However, I think x6 Vickers just about equals to stalemate.. don't you?

Seph :D

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59165
Hmmm! you know me too well Chris :ph34r:

59165... might one enquire as to how long the superb hooky has been in ones posession? Ebay win wasn't it?

seph

ebay bargain,Seph.

Went for the price I got for a full on relic bout 3 yrs ago.

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findabetterole

Thought as much!... I remember the item very well indeed. You outbid me, you cad! :blush:

Seph

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N White

I have had another question come up for me. Scabbards. I know that the internal chape is rarest and most desirable, along with double stitched. For later scabbards though, are different makers more desirable, or is the compression fit locket less common than riveted? What should I know?

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findabetterole

Specially for Chris... 6 Vickers.. :D

4, 7, 8, 11/18 + 9/17, 11/17

post-18081-1223957300.jpg

post-18081-1223957462.jpg

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4thGordons

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59165
Thought as much!... I remember the item very well indeed. You outbid me, you cad! :blush:

Seph

This one(semi relic)was from Sailly this summer.

PICT1741.jpg

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