Executed and "in the cold"

[John_Hartley]

My thanks to LRM2008 who draws the Project's attention to the case of Labourer Mahmoud Mohamed Ahmed, Egyptian Labour Corps, who was reportedly shot on 10 October 1917 and who is uncommemorated by CWGC.

His story is told in both Putkowski's and Babbington's books on executions but, to date, no documentary evidence of the execution has been presented to CWGC/MoD.

Presumably it exists in the relevent files. Putkowski cites as a source the war diary of "Marseilles Base", at WO95/4040, which may be the key (although it may just give the account of the disturbances which led to the capital offence). I understand that WO93/49 is s summary file of capital court martial cases so may also contain references.

Is there anyone who could do us a look-up for these two diaries (and any other "usual" executions files)? The relevent date period will be from 16 September 1917, when the offence was committed, through 28 September, when Ahmed was tried, to 10 October when it is reported he was executed. Crucial information that you would be looking for is a record of his conviction and sentence - and, vitally, further evidence that sentence was actually carried out. If you can do this for us, and find something, would you please get photocopies or very legible high resolution digi-photos.

TIA

John

[Ivor Lee]

John

I am fairly certain I have copies of the relevant file - will try to find it later tonight

Ivor

[Ivor Lee]

John

The file reference is WO 71/600

Is there anyone who could do us a look-up for these two diaries (and any other "usual" executions files)? The relevent date period will be from 16 September 1917, when the offence was committed, through 28 September, when Ahmed was tried, to 10 October when it is reported he was executed. Crucial information that you would be looking for is a record of his conviction and sentence - and, vitally, further evidence that sentence was actually carried out. If you can do this for us, and find something, would you please get photocopies or very legible high resolution digi-photos.

Within the file are a number of relevant documents including:

Schedule dated 26 September 1917 which shows his three offences. He was found guilty of using violence to his superior officer and conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline. It shows he was sentenced to death and this is confirmed by Douglas Haig (dated 5 Oct 1917)

Another document confirms that the court assembled on 28 September and handwritten at the bottom says

"The sentence of death was duly carried out at 5.14 AM on the 10 day of October 1917.

Signed F Fane (Canot be sure about the surname) A.P.M.

I can send you scans if you want?

Ivor

[John_Hartley]

Ivor

You're a star. That's a very large virtual drink I owe you as well as a real one if ever we meet. A PM wings its way to you.

John

[Neil Clark]

John,

A very interesting case you have come across here and well done for finding it in the first place. A few questions need answering -

Is this chap entitled to be commemorated by the CWGC under their Royal Charter/constitution?

Are there any other casualties who belonged to this same unit who are given CWGC commemoration (this would back up your case)?

Does Egypt have responsibility for commemorating their own casualties and for paying the same? Surely the fact he was shot by the British Military would constitute him being a British subject or a member of the British Imperial Armed Forces?

If he was found guilty of murder or Rape etc.. then I would prefer he remained forgotten forever but this is clearly NOT the case here. Bearing in mind this poor chap merely used violence to a superior officer, it does seem very unfair that others who commited similar military offences ARE commemorated and he's not!

Anyone who has served in a disciplined organisation will at some stage have wanted to strike a pompus and ignorant superior officer! In most cases this feeling is controlled. Who knows, this chap may have had good reason to have done it? Bearing in mind that this happened in the early 1900's, racial motives may have come into play to who knows...

I hope you are sucessful and wish you well...

[chrisharley9]

Neil

according to Geoffs Search Engine there are 273 members of the Egyptian Labour Corps commemorated by CWGC

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Chris,

Now thats SHOCKING!

[Chris_Baker]

Vast majority being sickness cases, of course.

[Guest geoff501]

Vast majority being sickness cases, of course.

Looking at my giant regiment chart, a number died around 1917 and indeed quite a number after the Armistice.

http://www.hut-six.co.uk/GreatWar/regchart.html

[Guest geoff501]

You're a star......

Well done, you three....

[John_Hartley]

Well done, you three....

Only two, mate. I've done nowt here.

This one is down to LRM2008 for the spot and Ivor for the docs.

Terry has the docs which are bang on for evidence and he'll whizz it off to CWGC tomorrow.

John

[michaeldr]

if I remember correctly a former member of this forum wrote a play for Egyptian TV about this episode; I saw a script but cannot say if the play was ever actually broadcast [Alas, the correspondence must have gone out with the previous computer]

The Egyptians took the whole business of the (mis)treatment of their nationals in the ELC very seriously indeed

and it was undoubtedly one of the primary causes if the civil unrest there which led to Allenby's recall to act as High Commissioner

A somewhat similar case was covered by this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...an+Labour+Corps

All power to the elbows of those now trying to put things right

[Guest geoff501]

Only two, mate. I've done nowt here.

You're the Platoon leader, mate.

[michaeldr]

quote from Chris; Vast majority being sickness cases, of course.

quote from Geoff; Looking at my giant regiment chart, a number died around 1917 and indeed quite a number after the Armistice.

JH's case concerns an ELC man serving in Europe, a theatre about which I know little [except perhaps for Gallipoli]

I have however, found that in the EEF, the record keeping of the ELC was absolutely appalling

Leading to the ridiculous state of affairs where the CWGC (acting on information supplied to them) can show a man's date of death

as anywhere, in any number of months, in any number of years

One example taken at random, being the first on the list at Haifa; see http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=654301

On this basis, it must very difficult to say what the primary cause of death was

Or for someone like Geoff to try and build up a useful set of statistical information

[John_Hartley]

Michael

Thank you for raising this wider issue to our attention. It is not so much the poor record keeping that appalls me, as such, but the apparent contempt for a man's life that there must have been to permit such record keeping.

John

[Guest geoff501]

Thank you for raising this wider issue to our attention. It is not so much the poor record keeping that appalls me, as such, but the apparent contempt for a man's life that there must have been to permit such record keeping.

There are large numbers of such records, like the one Michael quotes. Many Indian Regiments, I believe, have wider date ranges (the entire war for some).

Makes you wonder how many are not there and left out in the cold, until the end of time.

[Guest geoff501]

A quick head count of 74,000 Indian casualties, about 5,600 have a 'between' date of death.

[Ivor Lee]

As Michael has pointed out there are a number of men of the ELC whose date of death is shown in the form 1st January 1918 - 31st August 1921

There are numerous difficulties with records of the ELC (an other foreigh labour units). We do not, for example, know exactly how many men served in the ELC. One article in 1920 suggests it could have been as high as 1 million, I suspect it was at least 250,000. What we do not have are the records kept at the time. In addition there is the problem as Corns & Hughes-Wilson put it of "The army's insensitive imperialist attitudes, common at the time, cannot have helped"

When it comes to deaths and burials of these men things are equally as complicated. Interestingly the list provided by the CWGC to me has 255 natives of the ELC whereas I see Geoff's figure is 273. Does this include British Officers and ORs?

I ask this because in my section on the ELC in our book we are using 255 as the figure. I hope you do not mind if I quote from my own work but I hope it will clarify this question

"Even in death there are no accurate records, as The Times reported

“No information is available as to the casualties of the Egyptian Labour Corps. Though they must have been considerable, if only from sickness and exposure, they appear never to have been notified to families.”

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission records only 255 natives buried in graves administered by them although it is likely that thousands died whilst serving in the ELC. When in July 1918 questions were raised in Egypt about both the accurate reporting of ELC deaths and registering graves the DAD Graves Registration explained that he would need more men if full registration was to take place. He also pointed out that

“The relatives of the deceased ELC personnel apparently take no interest in the graves and so far as can be ascertained have not requested any information about them.”

As a result most natives lie in unidentified graves like the 198 men buried in the Bab Sitna Mariam Cemetery, Jerusalem and the 192 buried near Dayr Sunayd, Israel."

Ivor

[Terry Denham]

Labourer Ahmed is as entitled to CWGC commemoration as any other UK colonial serviceman - Egypt being under British control at the time.

His case will be presented this morning and I will report back in the usual way when we hear the result (which I am sure will be positive).

[Guest geoff501]

Interestingly the list provided by the CWGC to me has 255 natives of the ELC whereas I see Geoff's figure is 273. Does this include British Officers and ORs?

The figure of 273 I have (acquired Jan-Mar 2006) includes seven 2/LTs, one 1/Lt, and two Captains, presumably British subjects. So presumably 263 natives, although being computer generated and not hand checked there could be a few strays crept in, but unlikely.

In addition I have identified five more with ELC as a secondary regiment - they are mostly officers from General List attd to ELC. (I'm not sure my online Secondary Regiment search works, it may be buggy, so you may not get these five)

[Guest geoff501]

For NCOs, only one L/Cpl with an English sounding name.

[Terry Denham]

There are 273 ELC men commemorated by CWGC with two more being Non-World War Graves in their care.

There are also four men from the Egyptian Camel Transport Corps.

[michaeldr]

966 men of the Egyptian Labour Corps are "buried near this spot" in Ramleh CWGC Cemetery

and a further 110 men of the ELC are "buried near this spot" in Haifa War Cemetery

[michaeldr]

It is not so much the poor record keeping that appalls me, as such, but the apparent contempt for a man's life that there must have been to permit such record keeping.

Heartily agree with your sentiments there John

If I may trespass on your thread just a little longer, then I would like to add the following comments

quote from Ivor: "When in July 1918 questions were raised in Egypt about both the accurate reporting of ELC deaths and registering graves the DAD Graves Registration explained that he would need more men if full registration was to take place. He also pointed out that

“The relatives of the deceased ELC personnel apparently take no interest in the graves and so far as can be ascertained have not requested any information about them.”

Thanks for that information Ivor, but I must point out that the official quoted above was speaking totally disingenuously

In July 1918 it was very well known that there were strong feelings amongst the Egyptians regarding the ELC and the treatment of their labourers.

Allenby wrote to Wingate on 1st May 1918

"We can't get the men, and we can't do without them; and I am advised that the only way to get them is compulsion - on the lines of the Corvee - but paid, of course, at the present rate of wages. As you know, I am opposed to compulsion; but we seem to be between the Devil and the Deep Sea, and I don't know how to avoid it."

Wingate replied to Allenby on the 8th May 1918

He had spoken with the Sultan and with the Prime Minister (who also spoke on behalf of his ministers) and all were "strongly opposed to the conscription of labour"

Wingate convened a meeting at his Residency on 5th May 1918 (strangely, no Egyptians are listed as present) when this topic was discussed

"... we decided that the necessary result might be achieved by requisitioning labour from the villages through the Mudirs, Mamours and Omdas."

What is not clear to me, is how this system of 'requisitioning' labour by giving "the Omda of every village ... definite orders to produce labourers" differed from the compulsion which Allenby, the Sultan, the PM etc etc had already spoken against

Allenby's earlier comment indicates that he, for one, foresaw trouble, and it was not long in appearing. He reported to Wilson on 5th June 1918; "...there have been a few riots lately, owing to the clumsy handling of recruiting for the Egyptian Labour Corps."

[When these chickens really came home to roost in 1919, Allenby was again to write to Wilson on this matter indicating that his worst fears on the subject had been realized (16th April 1919) "Voluntary recruiting for the Egyptian Labour Corps - carried out by press-gang methods in the provinces - is one grievance."]

Wingate writing to Allenby a few days earlier (1st June 1918) refers to recruiting and also mentions

"One or two more 'incidents' have been reported"

In his same letter of 1st June, Wingate also touches on yet another problem in the ELC – health, which has also been referred to earlier in this thread

"Dr. Morrison of Alexandria has handed me a copy of the letter which the Syrian doctor (lately at Kantara and now here) sent to the D.M.S. on the condition of the E.L.C. Hospital at Kantara - it is a serious indictment and I should be glad to be able to contradict it - Perhaps the D.M.S. would send the facts to Dr. Morrison."

It seems that the labourers of the ELC were let down by more than just poor record keeping.

Regarding the record keeping & administrative aspects of the ELC;

there is an indication of what possibly might have been the root of this problem, which is given in 'The Advance of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force... ... July 1917 to October 1918 etc etc.' HMSO 1919, recently reprinted by the N & M Press

The press-gang methods of recruiting and all the other problems, eventually led to poor discipline in the ELC. In the end, this in turn led to skills such as speaking Arabic or the ability to correctly and promptly fill out army forms and reports, dropping down the priority list and discipline taking up a much more important position in the requirement for prospective officers of the corps.

Quote:

"The original and experienced officers of the Egyptian Labour Corps who had done excellent service in Mudros, Egypt and elsewhere were required for senior appointments in the corps, and they represented only a fraction of the increased number now necessary. Consequently, if Egyptian labour was to be properly organized it became essential to draw suitable officers with a knowledge of discipline from some other source. The problem was solved by offering temporary commissions to selected candidates from the ranks of British units, and ensuring them facilities for the acquisition of Arabic with extra pay on becoming proficient. Only those candidates who showed an aptitude in the handling of Egyptians, after a thorough practical test extending over several weeks, were accepted, and it is of interest to state that out of over 800 candidates dealt with 401 have been commissioned."

I tend to believe that the disorganization in the ELC's records which we see exemplified today in the CWGC's listings of their fallen, stems from this attempt to produce officers too quickly, and with too little training, while laying an over-emphasis on discipline at the expense of all the other skills required in looking after 200 or more men, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for month after month, in battlefield conditions.

[Ivor Lee]

Michael

I would agree completely that the men of the ELC were let down by more than just poor record keeping.

The same was true for other foreign labour including the SANLC, BWIR and CLC.

I am not condoning how these men were treated but I do think that we need to look at what happened in the context and thinking of the period.

Ivor