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Man enlists Gazette shows TFR, insignia = KLR ? WHY


lansleyd
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A 38 yr old man from Ludlow enlists in 1914 and is shown for the first time in the London Gazette 2-11-15, to be a Captain in the T.F.R.( General List), dated 5-7-15.

Subsequently he is shown in the Gazette of 16-1-17 to be transferred to the RDC also as Captain. He goes on to become Major in the 328th Pro Coy I believe based in Hereford.

Please can someone tell me why (1) personal records of the man indicate he thought of himself as in the King's Liverpool Regiment, and an undated photo show him wearing the KLR insignia of Hanover Horse over scroll, black metal.

(2) why his name doesn't appear in the Army Lists for Aug 1914 and Jan 1915

(3) why a Ludlow man would enlist in Liverpool?

(4) Was the TF not a regiment in its' own right? - did a soldier enlist in a County regiment/battalion but get listed in the Army Lists as simply Territorial force ?

Replies most welcome, knowledge gap holding up book publication progress!! :huh:

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(1) He was obviously serving in the King's Liverpool Regiment at the time the photograph was taken. Is it the uniform of an officer or an 'other rank'?

(2) Have you looked through the whole Army List? Perhaps he wasn't an officer at that time but was later commissioned from the ranks.

(3) If he was an officer in the King's he might have been offered a commission because there was a vacancy there. Officers were not as likely to join their 'local' regiment as enlisted men early in the war.

(4) The Territorial Force was not a Regiment. All regiments contained Territorial battalions, and some regiments were made up wholly of Territorial Battalions.

For additional help, could you perhaps post the photograph you refer to and give us the name of this man?

Ken

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(1) He was obviously serving in the King's Liverpool Regiment at the time the photograph was taken. Is it the uniform of an officer or an 'other rank'?

(2) Have you looked through the whole Army List? Perhaps he wasn't an officer at that time but was later commissioned from the ranks.

(3) If he was an officer in the King's he might have been offered a commission because there was a vacancy there. Officers were not as likely to join their 'local' regiment as enlisted men early in the war.

(4) The Territorial Force was not a Regiment. All regiments contained Territorial battalions, and some regiments were made up wholly of Territorial Battalions.

For additional help, could you perhaps post the photograph you refer to and give us the name of this man?

Ken

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Thank you Ken

I will see if I can get permission to post the photo.

I have sent off for the 1914-1918 Army List CD and I gather the entry for 1916 lists him as a Captain in the TFR. (dated 5 July 1915) . Perhaps it will state there if he is affiliated to the KLR.

Is it right then that a man serving in the " TFR" would not have a generic uniform+insignia but that of a certain regiment ?

He went into the RDC in 1916/17 and I believe men were allowed to continue wearing their original gear rather than changing to the RDC cipher GV badge.

I think the photo shows him as an officer.

David

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David,

I am not familiar with the TFR, but I have no doubt someone will read this and put us both straight on the matter. If he was an officer in the photo he will be wearing collar badges, the horse of hanover on a scroll with 'The Kings' thereon. If he is a Territorial officer in the King's Regiment I would expect to see a small 'T' below ( but not part of) the collar badge.

Ken

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TFR is probably Territorial Force Reserve.

Steve.

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wearing the KLR insignia of Hanover Horse over scroll, black metal.

6th Battalion KLR (TF)

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The 5th kings ( not the 6th) wore blackened cap and collar badges, are you sure the badges are not officers service dress bronze,they may appear black in photos.

The 6th kings wore a bugle horn badge with a Lancaster rose above as a collar badge and a cord boss badge in the officers cap.

Have to disagree with Ken ( sorry) but I have photographs of more Liverpool officers without the"T" below the collar badges,than those wearing the "T"s.

A scan of the photo might give some more clues

P.B.

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If the photo is of an officer, I think the black badges will actually be bronze (very dark) as suggested. I also accept Peter's point about the missing 'T' from the lapel.

On that note, if anyone has any photos of officers of the 9th King's Liverpools that they would be willing to share, I would be very grateful.

Ken

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Thanks especially to Ken Lees and pbryden

I am posting the image of Charles Hassard Wilfrid Dodgson. As I said in Post #1,he is listed in the Gazette of 2-Nov 1915 as Territorial Force Reserve ( General List) with date of rank ( captain) as 5 July 1915. He does not appear at all in the Jan 1915 Army List.

My puzzle is – his family obituary records him as joining up in 1914 with the Kings Liverpool Regiment and yet as early as July 1915 he is a Captain in the Territorial Force Reserve.

Please can anyone reconcile this for me?

Is it that he joined up as a private ( so not appearing in the Army List), and progressed to Captain in 1915?

Is it that he entered Officer training and went straight in as Captain with the TFR in 1915?

Did he leave the KLR for good on joining the TFR, or was he in both at the same time i.e. the Army Lists show TFR( General List) Captains but each has a regiment aswell in this case KLR? And does that explain his KLR insignia, that you keep them for the rest of your war time service? There is a thought that the picture is 1919.

Well they told me if you don't ask you don't get…...

If the photo is of an officer, I think the black badges will actually be bronze (very dark) as suggested. I also accept Peter's point about the missing 'T' from the lapel.

On that note, if anyone has any photos of officers of the 9th King's Liverpools that they would be willing to share, I would be very grateful.

Ken

post-36528-1219942330.jpg

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The full text of the Gazette entry implies that he went straight in as a Captain from a civilian (note that all the others note their army rank - this also applies to Other Ranks, though none are shown here).

TERRITORIAL FORCE RESERVE.

Yeomanry.

Lieutenant-Colonel William R. W. Viscount Peel, from the Bedfordshire Yeomanry, to be Lieutenant-Colonel. Dated 3rd November, 1915.

General List.

Charles Hassard Wilfrid Dodgson to be Captain. Dated 5th July, 1915.

Second Lieutenant John Blyth to be Lieutenant. Dated 20th September, 1915.

Second Lieutenant Arthur G. Papworth to be Lieutenant. Dated 20th September, 1915.

Second Lieutenant Alfred F. Truckle to be Lieutenant. Dated 27th September, 1915.

Perhaps he had some sort of speciality job that was required by the Military, and he went straight to Captain in order to command the appropriate number of men (I believe a Captain was required for the command of 250+ men).

Steve.

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Many thanks for that.

Do you have any idea why this TFR General List man has KLR insignia?

David

The full text of the Gazette entry implies that he went straight in as a Captain from a civilian (note that all the others note their army rank - this also applies to Other Ranks, though none are shown here.

TERRITORIAL FORCE RESERVE.

Yeomanry.

Lieutenant-Colonel William R. W. Viscount Peel, from the Bedfordshire Yeomanry, to be Lieutenant-Colonel. Dated 3rd November, 1915.

General List.

Charles Hassard Wilfrid Dodgson to be Captain. Dated 5th July, 1915.

Second Lieutenant John Blyth to be Lieutenant. Dated 20th September, 1915.

Second Lieutenant Arthur G. Papworth to be Lieutenant. Dated 20th September, 1915.

Second Lieutenant Alfred F. Truckle to be Lieutenant. Dated 27th September, 1915.

Perhaps he had some sort of speciality job that was required by the Military, and he went straight to Captain in order to command the appripriate number of men (I believe a Captain was required for the command of 250+ men).

Steve.

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OK then hows this for a possible scenario;-

Commissioned Capt TFR of Officers, General List, 5/7/15.

3rd(Home Service)Garrison Bn, Kings(Liverpool Regt) - formed Pembroke Dock, Aug 1916.

Capt Dodgson removed from TFR, Gen. List and possibly posted to 3rd(HS)Garrison Bn, Kings Regt.

3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt becomes 3rd Bn, Royal Defence Corps Aug 1917 - all current Kings officers and other ranks would now be transferred across to the RDC.

Capt Dodgson becomes Major in RDC and gets own RDC Coy.

As for badges - Officers on the General List wore the Royal Arms badges. Being on the General List they had no affiliation to any unit.

If he went to the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt, then this would account for his wearing Kings badges. At the same time you have to think how long was he with them? Was this photo taken just after joining? Did the Bn transfer to the RDC shortly after he joined?

Once the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt became an RDC unit then as far as I'm aware all members of that unit would be rebadged with Royal Cypher badges but I'll check on that.

On becoming a Major he would have been entitled to command an RDC Company of his own.

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Checked badge situation for the RDC and according to ACI's regarding the formation of the RDC, it would be the "Royal Cypher" for all. No mention of officers wearing anything else. All previously worn badges would be returned to stores. In the case of officers, I believe these were private purcase and so disposal would be their own affair.

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Intriguing and exciting scenario... well done. I have the CDRom Army Lists where there are Lists Jan 1915 and Nov 1917: it would be important then to see if the interim A/L's have a Dodgson in the 3rd(Home Service)GArrison Bn, Kings(Liverpool Regt.) I would dearly like to get proof of that. A book publication is at stake, as this man was the nephew of the famous author Lewis Carroll who's brother Wilfred is the subject of my book.

The photo is believed to be one that he arranged for his wife, and perhaps later ?1919. Maybe he felt great allegiance to the King's and wore them for the picture instead of his RDC Royal Cypher,

David

OK then hows this for a possible scenario;-

Commissioned Capt TFR of Officers, General List, 5/7/15.

3rd(Home Service)Garrison Bn, Kings(Liverpool Regt) - formed Pembroke Dock, Aug 1916.

Capt Dodgson removed from TFR, Gen. List and possibly posted to 3rd(HS)Garrison Bn, Kings Regt.

3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt becomes 3rd Bn, Royal Defence Corps Aug 1917 - all current Kings officers and other ranks would now be transferred across to the RDC.

Capt Dodgson becomes Major in RDC and gets own RDC Coy.

As for badges - Officers on the General List wore the Royal Arms badges. Being on the General List they had no affiliation to any unit.

If he went to the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt, then this would account for his wearing Kings badges. At the same time you have to think how long was he with them? Was this photo taken just after joining? Did the Bn transfer to the RDC shortly after he joined?

Once the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt became an RDC unit then as far as I'm aware all members of that unit would be rebadged with Royal Cypher badges but I'll check on that.

On becoming a Major he would have been entitled to command an RDC Company of his own.

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Speaking from the photo point of view it seemed to be that once you were uniformed, then off you went for a studio portrait. Photo's of officers on the General List are I would say rare. I did have a photo in my collection of an officer from the General List serving with the 149th Bde Signallers. I did a swap with one of our GWF members, but this photo can still be seen here(the officer tinted in the photo);-

http://www.fairmile.fsbusiness.co.uk/odellbert.htm

The current owner has his uniforms also, so it may be worth a look at.

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Graham has suggested a "pathway" for Dodgson's career.

His badges may have come from 3rd(H.S.) Garrison Bn, King's Liverpool Regt. The dates seem to fit his Gazette and AL entries; although he is not listed in AL Nov 1916 in the 3rd Garrison Bn KLR - there is a Captain Hadley only- however lists are not perfect and he's there in TFR General List.

The certainty factor looms nearer - he was posted to Hereford in the RDC in 328th Pro Coy, and the 3rd HS Garrison Bn formed in South Wales in Apr 1916, merging with the RDC in Aug 1917.

Another weaker possible is the 3/5th(Reserve) battalion King's Liverpool Regiment who went to Oswestry in early 1916.

Can anyone help with a look-up in Army Lists entries for CHW Dodgson ( apart from 8/14,1/15,11/16,12/17 and 12/18 which I have) ?

Speaking from the photo point of view it seemed to be that once you were uniformed, then off you went for a studio portrait. Photo's of officers on the General List are I would say rare. I did have a photo in my collection of an officer from the General List serving with the 149th Bde Signallers. I did a swap with one of our GWF members, but this photo can still be seen here(the officer tinted in the photo);-

http://www.fairmile.fsbusiness.co.uk/odellbert.htm

The current owner has his uniforms also, so it may be worth a look at.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is a newly discovered photograph though to be of the 328th Pro Coy Royal Defence Corps.

With the mascot goats are Major CHW Dodgson, and to his left is thought to be his brother, Lieut R H L Dodgson.

Comments on the insignia and decorations are invited please.

The Lieut to the Majors' left has a ribbon, and he has white metal KLR collar badges with a bronze metal cap badge, and silver buttons .

The Major has KLR bronzed metal badges and dark buttons.

The rest of the 28 men all bear the ? Crown and Cypher RDC badges ?

One odd man out is the Lieut to the right of Mjr CHW Dodgson, what are his badges ?

Would be really glad of your help, to define especially the Dodgson's military career paths. No written evidence anywhere so far of their KLR origin

post-36528-1221387474.jpg

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Hello,

The major is probably wearing OSD buttons which like his cap and collar badges would have a bronze finish.

The Lieutenant is almost certainly NOT wearing white metal collar badges and silver buttons. Silver and gilt collars were worn on full dress not service dress ,and silver buttons and collar badges were sometimes worn by the Volunteer battalions pre 1908

The buttons are possibily brass Liverpool Regt buttons which would have a shiny appearance in photographs.

The collars are again "probably" originally bronze ones which have had the bronze finish polished off and which appear to have a shiny finish on the photo

I have a photograph of officers of the 7th Liverpools in 1919 and a lot of the officers appear to have polished their bronze collar bages. Do you know the date of the group photo you have posted ?

Regards

Peter

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Hello,

The major is probably wearing OSD buttons which like his cap and collar badges would have a bronze finish.

The Lieutenant is almost certainly NOT wearing white metal collar badges and silver buttons. Silver and gilt collars were worn on full dress not service dress ,and silver buttons and collar badges were sometimes worn by the Volunteer battalions pre 1908

The buttons are possibily brass Liverpool Regt buttons which would have a shiny appearance in photographs.

The collars are again "probably" originally bronze ones which have had the bronze finish polished off and which appear to have a shiny finish on the photo

I have a photograph of officers of the 7th Liverpools in 1919 and a lot of the officers appear to have polished their bronze collar bages. Do you know the date of the group photo you have posted ?

Regards

Hello

The photo I believe has no date, although I will check with the family, as it is not in my possession.

Lieutenant R H L Dodgson died in March 1918 in hospital which puts it at 1917 latest as he had a chronic illness.

The full photo is shown here albeit cropped

Going back to the challenging issue ( apologies for so much repitition) but what is my best chance for getting documented evidence of KLR enlistment/Battalion details ?

No MICs exist for the two, although I have a list of over 30 RDC 328th Pro Coy men from Ancestry, of which 26 presumably surround the Dodgsons here. Gazette only states the Dodgsons as TFR Gen List, going on to join RDC.

A prize is offered for information leading to the discovery of the details sought !!

post-36528-1221414102.jpg

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OK then hows this for a possible scenario;-

Commissioned Capt TFR of Officers, General List, 5/7/15.

3rd(Home Service)Garrison Bn, Kings(Liverpool Regt) - formed Pembroke Dock, Aug 1916.

Capt Dodgson removed from TFR, Gen. List and possibly posted to 3rd(HS)Garrison Bn, Kings Regt.

3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt becomes 3rd Bn, Royal Defence Corps Aug 1917 - all current Kings officers and other ranks would now be transferred across to the RDC.

Capt Dodgson becomes Major in RDC and gets own RDC Coy.

As for badges - Officers on the General List wore the Royal Arms badges. Being on the General List they had no affiliation to any unit.

If he went to the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt, then this would account for his wearing Kings badges. At the same time you have to think how long was he with them? Was this photo taken just after joining? Did the Bn transfer to the RDC shortly after he joined?

Once the 3rd(HS)Gsn Bn, Kings Regt became an RDC unit then as far as I'm aware all members of that unit would be rebadged with Royal Cypher badges but I'll check on that.

On becoming a Major he would have been entitled to command an RDC Company of his own.

New thoughts after visit to TNA yesterday

The 3rd Garrison Bn KLR have their lists in the Monthly Army Lists and no Dodgsons

The 5th Bn KLR listed in the Monthly Army Lists are probably just the 1/5th Bn all listed BUT I have come to the conclusion that my men are not listed but were members of the 3/5th Bn - the TF unit that remained in the UK. I think this is a general rule for TFR General List officers - they're not listed under Regiments because they 2nd or 3rd line units

..and that fits all round, with badges (polished,originally dark of 5th Bn KLR), and dates.

D.J.L.

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The officer on the left of your group photo is wearing the 'Royal Arms' cap and collar badges in bronze and is therefore possibly an officer on the General List.

Officers Listed in the Army List for 2nd and 3rd Line Territorial Bns usually have '2' or '3' beside their names indicating the Line Bn, so wonder why the Kings should be so different?

Brilliant photo by the way and I'm intrigued by the cap badges of those behind the officers as they seem to be the Royal Cypher in a wreath whereas ACI's clearly state it would be the Royal Cypher only.

PS

Territorial officers also wore small broze 'T''s below their collar bdges to denote their Territorial status.

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The officer on the left of your group photo is wearing the 'Royal Arms' cap and collar badges in bronze and is therefore possibly an officer on the General List.

Officers Listed in the Army List for 2nd and 3rd Line Territorial Bns usually have '2' or '3' beside their names indicating the Line Bn, so wonder why the Kings should be so different?

Brilliant photo by the way and I'm intrigued by the cap badges of those behind the officers as they seem to be the Royal Cypher in a wreath whereas ACI's clearly state it would be the Royal Cypher only.

PS

Territorial officers also wore small broze 'T''s below their collar bdges to denote their Territorial status.

Hello,

Graham, can you have a go at explaining why these Dodgsons are not listed under any Regiment or Battalion in the Army Lists ?

I thought I had it wrapped up! All those on the General List - why don't they appear under Regiment/Battalion at the same time?

D.J.L.

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To be honest I'm s puzzled as you as to his career path and can only suggest trying to see if his officers service records still exist. In the meantime I don't know if you have this from the LG, but it records he relinquished his commission on the 26th Sept 1919;-

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

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