Joseph Naden/Nadin

[sotonmate]

David

I will study your questions,but for now,I did notice one of the soldiers does appear to have a different cap badge,the Sergeant on the Officer's right side. Some of the others look different but this may be due to stages of age, and finish,and maybe manufacture.

The service stripes I think were one per year on active WW1 service,but someone here will correct that if it's not so.

The medal ribbons could be for regular soldiers from the South African War around 1900. I don't think any ribbons for WW1 were issued until after it was over,although I am not sure about the Mons (1914) Star or the 1915 Star.

Sotonmate

[nadend]

I will study your questions,but for now,I did notice one of the soldiers does appear to have a different cap badge,the Sergeant on the Officer's right side. Some of the others look different but this may be due to stages of age, and finish,and maybe manufacture.

The service stripes I think were one per year on active WW1 service,but someone here will correct that if it's not so.

The medal ribbons could be for regular soldiers from the South African War around 1900. I don't think any ribbons for WW1 were issued until after it was over,although I am not sure about the Mons (1914) Star or the 1915 Star.

Sotonmate,

Thanks for looking into this for me. I didn't think my questions would be so difficult to answer, so I do appreciate your time and trouble.

If you are referring to the man, front row, 3rd right, most of his cap badge is in shadow. Even so, it's my guess it's the same as the others.

It's interesting that the photograph appears to be of a mixture of experienced soldiers who have seen action, and newly trained replacements, my Grandfather being one (probably).

Thanks again

[nadend]

The medal ribbons could be for regular soldiers from the South African War around 1900. I don't think any ribbons for WW1 were issued until after it was over,although I am not sure about the Mons (1914) Star or the 1915 Star.

Sotonmate,

I've googled medals and found North East Medals who describe various medals in detail.

If the photograph was taken before the end of WW1 hostilities, it is doubtful if they are the 1914-1915 Star (authorised 1918), the British War (1919), the Victory (1919), or the Territorial Force (1920) Medals.

The 1914 "Mons" Star was authorised April 1917, and the ribbon is similar to that in the photograph (Sergeant, 3rd from left). The Lance Corporal's ribbon appears white in the photograph (far right), but could be another 1914 Star.

The ribbon for the Queen's South African Medal, 1899-1900 would appear very dark on a B&W photograph. The King's South African Medal, 1901-1902 is another possibility, as the ribbon has 3 equal width stripes, dark, light and dark.

My money's on the 1914 "Mons" Star which dates the photograph 1917-1918, later than I thought it would be (1915).

I would be interested in your opinion, and that of others reading this thread.

Regards

[nadend]

I've had a good look at the picture, and you are right, the Sergeant to the left of the Officer also has a horizontal straight wound stripe of his left sleeve.

I've also had a second good look at the photograph and noticed...

The Officer also has two cheveron service stripes which I missed earlier. I assume the more service stripes a man has, the more services the man has completed. Does one stripe indicate one years service? Do the stripes indicate service in action, possibly on the Western Front?

The Private, back row, far right also has a cheveron on his sleeve, but on the left sleeve. Any idea what this represents?

I've read elsewhere on this forum that wound stripes was introduced in July 1916. So the date of the photograph must be after this. 1917-18 is looking the favourite.

The cheveron's on the soldier's lower left and right sleeves may also help to date the photograph more accurately. Any comments would be welcome.

Thanks

[dycer]

Dave,

I've not looked at the photos but the 1914 Star was only awarded to men who served in France and Belgium,under enemy fire. before 22 November 1914.

The 7th Cheshires did not qualify as they did not enter a field of conflict until 1915.So any photograghs of 7th Cheshire men will display the 1914/15 Star.

George

[nadend]

I've not looked at the photos but the 1914 Star was only awarded to men who served in France and Belgium,under enemy fire. before 22 November 1914.

George,

Thanks for your reply and your interesting comment.

Earlier in my Grandfather's millitary career, Joseph was in the 7th Cheshires. Later, he joined the South Lancs. Unfortunately, I do not know his battalion. Having said that, I suspect the photograph is of experienced soldiers (front row) and replacements (2nd and 3rd rows), and was taken after Jul 1916 (wound stripes). I'm guessing the ribbons worn by two of the front row soldiers are those for the 1914 Mons Star (see my previous post earlier today). I also think they are not Military Medal ribbons, but I'm open to persuasion.

I welcome you thoughts as to the date of the photograph, as I'm a novice with a little bit of knowledge (recently learnt), which is dangerous!

Thanks

[dycer]

Dave,

The photo looks late War/post War.

It is rare to find group photographs i.e. Battalion,Company photographs taken before foreign service.Some do exist e.g. taken by the local paper.

A post War group photo e.g. taken before demobilisation is more a possibility.Do you know when your Grt/Grandfather was demobbed?.You refer to him asking for his old job back in Gorton.Did he do some other work after leaving the Army and did impending marriage force him to return to his old career or did he leave the Army in 1922 and immediately return to the Carriage Shops.?Clearly men were unsettled after their service and found it difficult to settle back into civilian employment e.g. my Grandfather was a painter and decorator pre-WW1(he served his apprenticeship as a sign-writer),following Naval service in WW1 he spent a period in the early 1920's working as a deckhand on various merchant ships before returning to his pre-War occupation.This is despite having a young family to support and my Mother would tell tales of him disappearing to sea for months on end ,leaving my Grandmother with little means of financial support until he returned.One of my Mother's prized possessions was a "hankie" he gave her following a trans-Atlantic voyage.

Men transferred between Battalions and Regiments to make up losses,etc was common and a mixture of experience as shown by wound stripes,campaign medals,etc is hardly surprising e.g. my Father saw the Cadre of his local TF Battalion return in 1919 and only one man was on parade who left with the Battalion in 1914 and would be entitled to wear the 1914 Star.

George

[nadend]

The photo looks late War/post War.

It is rare to find group photographs i.e. Battalion,Company photographs taken before foreign service. Some do exist e.g. taken by the local paper.

A post War group photo e.g. taken before demobilisation is more a possibility.Do you know when your Grt/Grandfather was demobbed?.You refer to him asking for his old job back in Gorton.Did he do some other work after leaving the Army and did impending marriage force him to return to his old career or did he leave the Army in 1922 and immediately return to the Carriage Shops.?Clearly men were unsettled after their service and found it difficult to settle back into civilian employment e.g. my Grandfather was a painter and decorator pre-WW1(he served his apprenticeship as a sign-writer),following Naval service in WW1 he spent a period in the early 1920's working as a deckhand on various merchant ships before returning to his pre-War occupation.This is despite having a young family to support and my Mother would tell tales of him disappearing to sea for months on end ,leaving my Grandmother with little means of financial support until he returned.One of my Mother's prized possessions was a "hankie" he gave her following a trans-Atlantic voyage.

Men transferred between Battalions and Regiments to make up losses,etc was common and a mixture of experience as shown by wound stripes,campaign medals,etc is hardly surprising e.g. my Father saw the Cadre of his local TF Battalion return in 1919 and only one man was on parade who left with the Battalion in 1914 and would be entitled to wear the 1914 Star.

George,

It's an interesting idea that the photograph was taken after the war, one that did not occur to me. I've been thinking it was taken before, rather than after. It would explain the uniform differences etc. Maybe these are the only survivors from a platoon or even worse, a whole battalion.

I do not know when my Grandfather enlisted (or was conscripted), nor do I know when he was discharged. I do not know his battalion nor his service number. He may be 29949, as a medal card for this soldier exists on Ancestry. I was hoping somebody may recognise one of the soldiers in the photograph, and could identify the battalion, but I knew the odds were against it.

There was a story in the family that he was wounded at the Somme. I've no proof of this. In fact, he may have seen no action at all, I don't know. I don't think he suffered after the war. If he had, I think the family would have passed that story down the generations. He didn't marry until 1923, so there was no home life problems that I'm aware of.

I've also noticed what could be snow on the ground in the photograph, with tufts of grass exposed here and there. Maybe it was taken winter 1918/19 or later, when he was demobbed.

I need to go to the South Lancs archives. I think they can be found in Preston. Maybe I'll find something, maybe not.

Thanks once again.

[dycer]

Dave,

I understand your frustration.

I'm probably luckier than you(if that's the correct word) as I have my two Uncles' Trios and other bits and pieces.So I know their Battalion.

I can track their pre-War TF Service due to postcards sent from Camp and through the generosity of Forum Colleagues I've received copies of the Battalion War Diary and their Obituaries.From these I've been able to track the movements of the Battalion(including copies of movement orders naming an Uncle) and their pre-War occupations.

The sting in the tale,of course,is that I never met them although I did meet my Naval Grandfather. He died when I was aged 5 or 6 so I never had the chance to talk to him about his War.Whether he would have opened up is open to question.Clearly my Grandfather did not have a harsh war in comparison to your Grandfather or my Uncles but it must have marked him.

There will always be gaps.My Father was born in 1900 and he occasionally talked about growing up,schoolboy tales and the fact that he was a big drummer in a Royal Scots Pipe Band.There is some tale that he ran away to join the RFC underage and his Father got him out.The only thing he mentioned about work during WW1 was working on a traction engine wood cutting but no colour was ever given to living in a unremarkable Town during a momentous 4 years.His post War career, as a Policeman was started, as a result of a reference from his days in a Volunteer Royal Scots Battalion between 1917 and 1919 and he would happily talk about service during the 1926 Strike,etc but 1914/18 was wiped from his memory other than the odd snippets I have mentioned

If you want a bit of light? relief check out Form Member,John Duncan's, Web-site -Newbattle at War-.Look under 8th Royal Scots and the Photo Gallery.I'm sure you'll be able to work out my Surname.

George

p.s. Macc is warm and sunny today,makes a change

[nadend]

I understand your frustration.

I'm probably luckier than you(if that's the correct word) as I have my two Uncles' Trios and other bits and pieces.So I know their Battalion.

I can track their pre-War TF Service due to postcards sent from Camp...

George,

I read you last post with interest. Names, dates of birth, marriage and death are just that. What makes family history come to life are memories and stories passed down through the family. It's a fact of life that we don't live forever, and these things can be lost forever if not written down. I wish all my ancestors had at least kept a diary or something, or they were still alive to answer all my questions. What I need is one of those time-machine thingamybobs.

Your comment about Postcards has reminded me that must look though all the old family letters etc. again in the near future for clues. It's too easy to ignore things when you don't understand them, putting it down to bad handwriting, spelling etc.

Many soldiers endured some truly horrific things on the battlefield. It very common for a soldier never to talk about those times, even today. Many try to forget the unforgettable, but I doubt if they ever do.

I'll look at the other thread tomorrow, all being well.

Thanks once again.

PS Leeds today, scorchio!

[nadend]

Hi,

 

I am now certain 29949 Private Joseph Naden, 7th Bn., South Lancashire (Prince of Wales's Volunteers) Regiment, 56th Bde., 19th Div. is my Grandfather. The 19th Div. was in reserve on 1st Jul 1916, but was involved in the capture of La Boiselle a couple of days later and later in other Battles of the Somme. So the family story that Joseph was wounded on the Somme is probably true. However, as I do know when he first arrived in France, I cannot state with any certainty when and where. Progress at last !

 

[charlie962]

24 minutes ago, nadend said:

So the family story that Joseph was wounded on the Somme is probably true

Casualty List 5/3/17 reports him Wounded.  Thus actual wounding early Feb 1917 ? He may have been wounded more than once.

[Mark1959]

J Naden, 29949 was admitted with”GSW IX, VIII (Shr) to 3 CCS 31/1/1917. He was put on 30 Ambulance Train on 8/2/1917.  7 Lancs. a number of other 7 Lancs are admitted so War Diary should give a likely location 

Source - admission book 3 Casualty Clearing Station. 

So looks like Shrapnel wounds of grades 8 and 9

Ancestry war diaries are down at the moment.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/classification-of-wounds-using-by-the-british-army-in-the-first-world-war/ explains the grades of wounds.

Edited 10 October , 2019 by Mark1959

[nadend]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Casualty List 5/3/17 reports him Wounded.  Thus actual wounding early Feb 1917 ? He may have been wounded more than once.

Hi,

 

Thanks for that piece of information. As my family know very little about WW1, I have been wondering if he was wounded on the Somme, after all, its one of two campaigns that the general public will quote.

 

Please could you let me know where I could find casualty lists? Online?

 

I now the lists was printed in many newspapers, but I thought that was stopped in 1916 for security - enemy military intelligence reasons.

 

[nadend]

8 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

J Naden, 29949 was admitted with”GSW IX, VIII (Shr) to 3 CCS 31/1/1917. He was put on 30 Ambulance Train on 8/2/1917. 

Source - admission book 3 Casualty Clearing Station. 

So looks like Shrapnel wounds of grades 8 and 9

Ancestry war diaries are 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the information.

 

Please could you let me know where I could find the 3rd CCS Admission Book and Ambulance Train records? Online?

[Mark1959]

Findmypast. If you have it I will post the link.

Ancestry war diaries working again. As sure as I can be he was wounded at Hebuterne on the afternoon of 31/1/17. All the casualties were the result of enemy shelling. 7 other ranks killed, 18 wounded - 2 remained at duty, 2 officers wounded but remained at duty.

Hebuterne is north of Beaumont Hamel on the Somme.

6 of the killed are buried at the nearby Couin New British Cemetery

 

 

Edited 10 October , 2019 by Mark1959

[nadend]

3 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Findmypast. If you have it I will post the link.

Ancestry war diaries working again. As sure as I can be he was wounded at Hebuterne on the afternoon of 31/1/17. All the casualties were the result of enemy shelling. 7 other ranks killed, 18 wounded - 2 remained at duty, 2 officers wounded but remained at duty.

Hebuterne in north of Beaumont Hamel on the Somme.

 

 

Hi again,

 

And thanks again for the information. Your suggestion is consistent with the story passed down by my family, that Joseph lived with shrapnel in his back for the rest of his life. That's all I know about his war service I'm afraid. He was cremated when he died in 1969 when I was young. However I doubt if the crematorium would have saved the shrapnel even if the family had made the request.

 

I will look at the war diaries for that date. I am very pleased that you and charlie962 have discovered these details. Thanks once again.

[Mark1959]

3 CCS was at Puchevillers. Near at hand. So all fits.