Joseph Naden/Nadin

[nadend]

Hi,

I apologise in advance for all the questions I'm about to ask.

I'm trying to make sense of my grandfather's military service. As background information, Joseph lived in Macclesfield for most of his life. About the time of WW1, he worked at Gorton Tank Locomotive Works, a couple of miles south of Manchester city centre which may be relevant.

I have a pre-WW1 Militiaman's Small Book which belonged to Joseph. I have summarised its contents...

4th Bn., Cheshire Regt., Regt. No. 5829, Joseph Nadin, enlisted 13.3.05 at Macclesfield, aged 17 years 2 months (which is correct), resident in St. Paul's parish at 103 Bank Street, Macclesfield, height 5 feet, 2 1/8 inches. On the back cover is D Coy.

Could anybody tell me where he may have been based?

Would he have been a part time soldier, like the modern day TA?

Given his height (very precisely documented!), I'm surprised he was accepted. Was this normal practice?

I've also got a cap badge which is very simple in design. Basically it has the Cheshire regiment name a curved upwards. Immediately above that is the number 7, and above that is the letter T.

Am I right in thinking this is a cap badge for the 7th (Territorial) Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment?

Any further information regarding this cap badge would be welcome.

According to stories handed down in the family, Joseph was wounded at the Battle of the Somme. He survived the war, or I wouldn't be here writing this message!

I have a photograph of Joseph in his uniform, and another of him in a group of 25 soldiers arranged in 3 tiers. I also have a bi-metal South Lancashire regiment cap badge, Ich Dien, Egypt, Prince of Wales's Vol's, which is very similar to those in the photographs. So I'm certain he served in this regiment.

Given that there are 25 men in the photograph, which is too small for a company or a platoon, and too large for a section, could you suggest anything?

Where can I find the South Lancashire Regimental archives?

Finally, I also have 2 Royal Artillery cap badges, Ubrique, Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt, which are slightly different. I do not know if these badges belonged to Joseph. Was it normal practice to recruit Gunners from the infantry during WW1?

Thanks in anticipation

Dave

[sotonmate]

Dave

There is one soldier with the name Joseph NADEN who served in the South Lancashire Regiment. He was a Private with the number 29949. There is also a soldier of the same name who served in a Training Reserve Battalion,Private 70521.

There are seven Joseph NADINs,1 JA in the KOYLI,2 Js in the ASC,1 J in the Yorks and Lancs,1 J in the KRRC and two Js in the RFA.

From what you say the first mentioned fits the bill. You can get his medal Card from the NA Catalogue under WO372/14,or maybe someone here with Ancestry UK may provide it for nothing !

Sotonmate

[nadend]

There is one soldier with the name Joseph NADEN who served in the South Lancashire Regiment. He was a Private with the number 29949. There is also a soldier of the same name who served in a Training Reserve Battalion,Private 70521.

There are seven Joseph NADINs...

Thanks for your reply. That's one of my problems, which one is it? As you suggest, Private 29949 is the favourite. Though there are 2 Nadin's in the RFA, 18091 and 263320.

A few month's ago I got all the Naden/Nadin medal cards and pension records from Ancestry, though I think more may have been added since. Ancestry also have some service records online, but no Naden/Nadin's the last time I looked.

I need to find his service records if they still exist. I know many records were destroyed during WW2, and I believe all the Naden/Nadin records were amongst them. If so, I need to find the South Lancashire Regimental records which may still exist. Any help would be appreciated.

It may be worth noting that Ancestry can be accessed free in all Cheshire and Staffordshire libraries, as well as in the Central Library here in Leeds. I guess it may also be accessible free elsewhere in the country.

Thanks

[sotonmate]

DN

South Lancashire Regimental Museum is at Peninsula Barracks,Warrington.Cheshire.WA27BR.

Telephone 01925 33563.

Sotonmate

[nadend]

South Lancashire Regimental Museum is at Peninsula Barracks,Warrington.Cheshire.WA27BR.

Telephone 01925 33563.

Thanks

[nhclark]

Here's the Ancestry MiC for the Joseph Naden of the South Lancashires.

I could find nothing at all on Ancestry for a Joseph Naden/Nadin of the Cheshires. However, some service records and MiCs are still to be uploaded to the site.

Noel

[dycer]

Dave,

As a Macc resident but not a Maxonian a couple of thoughts.

If your Grandfather enlisted in 1905 he joined the Miltia as the Territorials were not formed until 1908.

The obvious Drill Hall is the one on Bridge Street but I cannot remember what Unit is carved on the entrance.It's not far from me so I'll check later today.

Another possibility is the Armoury on Crompton Road but this is unlikely as this was used by the Yeomanry.

The 7th Cheshires(TF) were based in Macc.If you use access the Main Site under Army the Infantry Regiments you'll find details of their and the South Lancs War movements.

Is it possible that your Grandfather left the Miltia pre-War and subsequently volunteered or conscripted into the South Lancs?

A suggestion for the Badges if there is no evidence he served Gunner.Could he have obtained them from Relatives/Friends during or after the War?Quite a bit of trading in Cap Badges,etc took place between Soldiers of different Regiments.

George

[nadend]

Dave,

As a Macc resident but not a Maxonian a couple of thoughts.

If your Grandfather enlisted in 1905 he joined the Miltia as the Territorials were not formed until 1908.

The obvious Drill Hall is the one on Bridge Street but I cannot remember what Unit is carved on the entrance.It's not far from me so I'll check later today.

Another possibility is the Armoury on Crompton Road but this is unlikely as this was used by the Yeomanry.

The 7th Cheshires(TF) were based in Macc.If you use access the Main Site under Army the Infantry Regiments you'll find details of their and the South Lancs War movements.

Is it possible that your Grandfather left the Miltia pre-War and subsequently volunteered or conscripted into the South Lancs?

A suggestion for the Badges if there is no evidence he served Gunner.Could he have obtained them from Relatives/Friends during or after the War?Quite a bit of trading in Cap Badges,etc took place between Soldiers of different Regiments.

George

George,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping somebody who lives in the area would reply. I was born in Macclesfield, but left when I was only 9.

I'm glad you have confirmed the 7th Cheshires(TF) were based in Macclesfield, as it was a guess.

My Grandfather lived on Bank Street, off Mill Lane, Sutton, so Crompton Road Barracks was "the other side of town". However, after he married in 1923, he lived at 144 Crompton Road for the rest of his life. Also Annie, his sister married Joseph Taylor Whiston in 1904 and lived at 232 Crompton Road near the Barracks. Even so, I feel the Barracks and the Drill Hall are equally strong contenders.

I know the Drill Hall and that sometimes it is open to the public when they hold jumble sales in the hall etc. I vaguely remember the Barracks have been converted to flats, and so are now private property. It is not often I visit Macclesfield these days.

I think you are probably right about Joseph leaving the 7th Cheshires. My guess is he volunteered for the South Lancs, as I think conscription started in 1916, possible 1917 after the Somme.

Joseph had a unhappy childhood. His mother died a couple of months after giving birth. His father re-married in 1894, and Joseph did not "get on" with his step-mother. In fact, he ran away from home, and went to live with his natural mother's family, the Pointon's at Mow Cop before WW1. He may have viewed the 7th Cheshires as another opportunity for escape.

I suspect Joseph did not serve in the RA. Other members of the family did serve in the forces, but I don't know their regiments either. As I mentioned previously, there are 2 RA Cap badges. But what I forgot to mention is that I also have a cloth RA badge which has been removed from a uniform. Never the less, they could have been traded.

Do you think the South Lancs may have recruited in Macclesfield?

Once again, thanks you your reply

[nadend]

The 7th Cheshires(TF) were based in Macc...

Having looked at The Long, Long Trail, I'm a confused as to Joseph's Cheshire battalion. His militia book clearly states the 4th Bn. I've no doubt the 7th Bn. is associated with Macclesfield.

From the LLT...

1/4th probably already existed in 1914, based at Birkenhead, not Macclesfield.

2/4th formed in 1914 at Birkenhead, i.e. probably did not exist in 1905.

1/7th probably already existed in 1914, based in Macclesfield

2/7th formed in 1914 in Macclesfield, i.e. probably did not exist in 1905.

Was the 4th Bn. a militia Bn. based in Macclesfield in 1905, and subsequently redesignated the 7th Bn., possibly after the creation of the TA in 1908?

[SteveE]

Was the 4th Bn. a militia Bn. based in Macclesfield in 1905, and subsequently redesignated the 7th Bn., possibly after the creation of the TA in 1908?

In a word no (just to add to your confusion ). The 4th Volunteer Battalion became the 6th Battalion T.F. in 1908 and the 5th Volunteer Battalion became the 7th Battalion T.F.

The 4th Battalion Cheshire Regiment which was a Militia battalion (not to be confused with the Volunteer battalions), was disbanded in 1908. Makes sense then that if your Grandfather continued to serve in a part time capacity after 1908 then he would have enlisted into the 7th Battalion T.F. which was his local unit.

Steve

[dycer]

Was the 4th Bn. a militia Bn. based in Macclesfield in 1905, and subsequently redesignated the 7th Bn., possibly after the creation of the TA in 1908?

Dave,

If you use the Search Facility on the Forum-Macclesfield Drill Hall-you should find previous Threads that help.

I've got a feeling that it is 4th Cheshire that is carved above the Drill Hall entrance.If I don't manage past today I'll look tomorrow.

The Drill Hall, on Bridge Street, was used for Jumble Sales,etc and in my TA days in the 1970's it was still used as a Drill Hall.It is now closed and and has been converted to Offices possibly Flats as well.

The Armoury on Crompton Road is now Flats as you say.

There is a Barracks Lane in Macc but no evidence of 19/20th Century Military activity has been found.

The Cheshires were the obvious Regiment for your Grandfather to join but I see he worked in Manchester(as an aside it must have been a better train service in his day than modern times )Is it possible he joined the same Regiment as most of his workmates?

Crompton Road has not changed it's just a pain to drive due to its narrowness and the both side street parking.As you left Macc aged 9 you would not have had the opportunity to patronise the

Bruce,may have been your Grandfather's Local,though.It's still open.

George

[nadend]

In a word no (just to add to your confusion ). The 4th Volunteer Battalion became the 6th Battalion T.F. in 1908 and the 5th Volunteer Battalion became the 7th Battalion T.F.

The 4th Battalion Cheshire Regiment which was a Militia battalion (not to be confused with the Volunteer battalions), was disbanded in 1908. Makes sense then that if your Grandfather continued to serve in a part time capacity after 1908 then he would have enlisted into the 7th Battalion T.F. which was his local unit.

Steve

Thanks for your reply. I think you are right. Joseph probably served in the 4th Bn. 1905-1908, and then either joined or transferred to the 7th Bn. in 1908 or later because...

From the LLT...

1/6th Bn. probably already existed in 1914, based at Stockport.

2/6th formed in 1914 at Stockport.

...and I now know the 7th Bn. was based in Macclesfield. I think that has solved that mystery.

I don't suppose you know if the 4th and 7th Bn. records are kept at the Military Museum, Chester by any chance?

Thanks again Steve and George

[dycer]

Dave,

There is research been undertaken about the 7th Cheshires for a possible Book.

The Researcher is the same as the Author of "For Kings and Country".Kings being the School in Macc.Unfortunately I cannot remember his Name but I don't think he is a member of the Forum.

I know,though,that Forum Member-Mercian Volunteer-is/was assisting in the Research.

Can I suggest you send Steve(Mercian) a Personal Message via the Forum and he may be able to point you in the right direction about the Records.

Sorry I can't assist more but any expertise I have(which ain't much) relates to a Scots Battalion.

George

[nadend]

I've got a feeling that it is 4th Cheshire that is carved above the Drill Hall entrance...

The Armoury on Crompton Road is now Flats as you say.

There is a Barracks Lane in Macc but no evidence of 19/20th Century Military activity has been found.

The Cheshires were the obvious Regiment for your Grandfather to join but I see he worked in Manchester...

Is it possible he joined the same Regiment as most of his workmates?

...As you left Macc aged 9 you would not have had the opportunity to patronise the Bruce,may have been your Grandfather's Local,though.It's still open.

George,

Thanks again. Re the 4th and 7th Battalions, see previous postings in this thread.

I was alway fascinated by the Armoury when I was a kid, a real castle just down the road (my grandparents often looked after me and my brother as both my parents worked). What I remember is that there was a large parade ground surround by towers, walls on three sides and buildings on the fourth side, like offices etc. It did not look as if there was a large hall there, or am I wrong?

Also the thought has occured to me that there may have been more than one "company" of militia/TF based in Macclesfield, hence the possibility of more than one base.

I'm not sure, but I think Joseph only started work in Manchester after WW1. It seems that he probably left the 7th Cheshires before WW1 and enlisted with the South Lancs, probably in 1915. It is curious as to why he did not re-enlist with the Cheshires, but joined the South Lancs. I doubt if the South Lancs would invade the Cheshires turf and recruit in Macclesfield. Maybe they had a gorgeous female scantily-clad recruitment sergeant?

My Grandfather was often to be found in a pub, a habit I've inheirited. So I will have to check the Bruce out someday soon!

[nadend]

The Researcher is the same as the Author of "For Kings and Country"...

I've seen that book for sale somewhere. I think it's focusses on the King's School boys who served during WW1, but I will look into it. Thanks for reminding me of its existence.

[nadend]

The Cheshires were the obvious Regiment for your Grandfather to join but I see he worked in Manchester...

Is it possible he joined the same Regiment as most of his workmates?

I've just been looking through the family papers again. Amongst them is a draft letter written by my Grandfather dated 7th October 1922 to a Mr Price. Joseph enquired if there was "a vacancy for a wagon repairer's labourer or brakesman". He had been working at "Gorton Shops" and had been made redundant. He had worked for the G.G.R. in the shops for 15 years. In other words, Joseph started work in Manchester in 1907.

It seems likely the South Lancs held a recruitment drive at, or near the premises of this large employer.

Time will tell...

[dycer]

Dave,

Just checked the Bridge Street Drill Hall but regret to say the lintel inscription does not help.

8th C.R.V 1872

It has now been converted to Flats.

There was a Parade Ground at the Armoury(Barracks) at Crompton Road.If you used the Forum Search Facility using Drill Hall,Macclesfield you may have seen a photo of Soldiers on parade on the ground.

I first knew the Armoury in the 1970s when part of it was being used as a Disco and the parade ground was a carpark.

There was a recent article in the local paper saying the Armoury residents were trying to find some information about its previous military use for a possible display within the building.

George

[nadend]

Just checked the Bridge Street Drill Hall but regret to say the lintel inscription does not help.

8th C.R.V 1872

It has now been converted to Flats.

There was a Parade Ground at the Armoury(Barracks) at Crompton Road.If you used the Forum Search Facility using Drill Hall,Macclesfield you may have seen a photo of Soldiers on parade on the ground.

George,

Thanks. I didn't find any pictures, not to worry.

Here is a photo of my Grandfathers 7th Cheshires cap badge which probably dates back to 1908 which may be of interest.

http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k394/na...eCheshire-1.jpg

I hope the link worked.

[bigronhartley]

Hello Dave,

The photo of your Grandfathers 7th Cheshires cap badge is in fact a shoulder title which dates post 1908, nice to have. The inscription 8 CRV refers to 8th Cheshire Rifle Volunteers. Hope this helps.

Where abouts in Leeds are from ?

Regards

Ron

[nadend]

The photo of your Grandfathers 7th Cheshires cap badge is in fact a shoulder title which dates post 1908, nice to have. The inscription 8 CRV refers to 8th Cheshire Rifle Volunteers. Hope this helps.

Where abouts in Leeds are from ?

Ron,

I wasn't sure if the link would work, I'm glad it did (first picture ever posted).

I assume a shoulder title attaches to the soldiers uniform epaulettes (I think that what they are called). Should there be a pair, one for each shoulder? I've only got the one.

I was born in Macclesfield, and have lived in various places. I now live in north-east Leeds, about 1/2 mile from Roundhay Park and 3 miles from the city centre.

Thanks for your reply

[bigronhartley]

Hello Dave,

Yes a shoulder title attaches to the soldiers uniform epaulettes and there should be a pair, one for each shoulder. We might be neighbours, I live in Moortown, near St. Gemmas.

Regards

Ron

[nadend]

We might be neighbours, I live in Moortown, near St. Gemmas.

I now need to contact other members of the family to find the other shoulder title (and medals?). Though as the one I have has been damaged, my Grandfather, Joseph may have been allowed to keep it. He may have had to return the undamaged pair, and maybe the whole uniform too! If so, I hope he was wearing clean underwear!

I live the other side of the park, on the Fearnville estate, off Easterly Road. So I'm not too far away. It's a small world...

I will post the WW1 picture of Joseph with his 24 other South Lancs colleagues in a few days time.

Thanks

[nadend]

I will post the WW1 picture of Joseph with his 24 other South Lancs colleagues in a few days time.

Here is the picture of my Grandfather with others in the South Lancs (280Kb)...

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k394/na...nSouthLancs.jpg

Joseph is on the back row, 3rd from the left. At 5'8", he looks as if he is the shortest man there.

An thats about all I know about this picture. I do not know when or where this picture was taken, or even Joseph's battalion.

The 18 men on the back two rows are privates. All the men on the front row all have stripes, left to right, 1, 1, 3, Officer?, 3, 2, 1. Not knowing much about the army, I've no idea of their ranks.

What may be of interest, is that three of those on the front row have smaller cheverons at the end of their sleeves. From the left, the 2nd man has 2, the 5th also has 2, and the 7th man has 3.

I would welcome any comments about this photograph.

Thanks in anticipation

[sotonmate]

Dave

The front row are NCOs with an Officer in the centre. Lance Corporal (1) Corporal (2) and Sergeant (3) are the stripes on the upper arm. Those on the lower right arm are service stripes,they also have wound stripes on the left forearm if they were so unfortunate. In fact,does the Sergeant on the Officer's left side have such a stripe ?

Sotonmate

[nadend]

The front row are NCOs with an Officer in the centre. Lance Corporal (1) Corporal (2) and Sergeant (3) are the stripes on the upper arm. Those on the lower right arm are service stripes,they also have wound stripes on the left forearm if they were so unfortunate. In fact,does the Sergeant on the Officer's left side have such a stripe ?

Thanks for your comments.

I've had a good look at the picture, and you are right, the Sergeant to the left of the Officer also has a horizontal straight wound stripe of his left sleeve.

I've also had a second good look at the photograph and noticed...

The same Sergeant also appears to have a medal ribbon above his left pocket, as does the Corporal, front row, far right.

The Officer also has two cheveron service stripes which I missed earlier. I assume the more service stripes a man has, the more services the man has completed. Does one stripe indicate one years service? Do the stripes indicate service in action, possibly on the Western Front?

The Private, back row, far right also has a cheveron on his sleeve, but on the left sleeve. Any idea what this represents?

He may also be carrying what looks like a stick, possibly a batton tucked under his left arm with ferrules top and bottom.

Finally, my last observation is that the soldiers are dressed differently. Some have canvas belts, some have leather. They have 3 different collar styles. (how I missed that first time, I don't know). Their pocket flaps are also different, but I think all their cap badges are the same. In your opinion, are these men from different units?

Thanks in anticipation