Minden PoW camp (photograph)

[linden]

That'll be very interesting reading, I'll PM you my email address shortly

Having tried to find information online, the only other photos of his thay I can find are also of PoWs of various nationalities in various different camps. Perhaps this is how he made his living? Photographing PoWs to be sent home to families.

Interesting that he appears with other photos . Is there anything like the 1901 census that might locate him ?

[pratt]

The area of POW Camp Minden (after second World War British St.George Barracks)

Friedhelm

[PhilB]

It`s 50 years since I was there, so I`m guessing but is that the same place as the late 1950s camp was built on?

[linden]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jul 7 2008, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It`s 50 years since I was there, so I`m guessing but is that the same place as the late 1950s camp was built on?

St George's Barracks sounds familiar . But if that is the place I remember , it looked as though it had been used as a regular military barracks during WW2 . Presumably the POW camp would have been wooden structures ?

[JimSmithson]

Matt , was your grandfather mining near Minden ? I did see a programme about factories in tunnels under the hills around Minden during WW2 .

I wonder whether they might be connected ? I wonder what they mined there ?

Linden

There are iron ore mines in the hills east of Minden, in Namen and Kleinenbremen. One of them is open as a museum and when you visit you are told about how they were used as underground factories in the second world war. The mines go back well before WW1 and therefore are a very possible place for prisoners from Minden. There is still a rail line that heads towards Minden from Kleinenbremen so transport was probably easy.

There are old coal mines further east towards Hannover, near Stadthagen but these are some way off and would have meant a longer journey. Still possible though.

There are, unfortunately, no British units in Minden as this could have made finding out more a little easier but I will put the feelers out.

Jim

[pratt]

@ Phil B

The exact location of St.George Barracks is a little bit south east (near Kingsleyallee)

Friedhelm

[Doug Johnson]

Firstly, the PoW cemetery at Minderheide should no longer contain any Brits as they would have been removed after the war.

The cemetery may no loger exist at all but many of them do in various conditions. There is no indication of the camp on this photograph.

Die Kriegsgefangenen in Deutchland by Prof Backhaus contains five photographs relating to Minden. It is from here that I got the information that there was more than one "camp" as two are labelled Minden I and one is labelled Minden II. The other two are outside the camp. This information dates to 1915.

Minden is listed as a head camp in October 1918. Out of the 15 000 plus prisoners registered there at that time, none are Brits.

I have two photographs from Minden, both showing unnamed Brits. In both cases they are wearing a small label attached to the button of the right breast pocket. The photographs are not clear but there is a hint of a number on this label. In one of the photographs the PoW's are wearing clogs, the other does not show his feet. Neither of the photographs shows the other signs of a PoW ie there are no armbands and no stripe down the trousers. The background to these photographs are identical to the one above so that must have been the favoured photographing place.

As a head camp there would have been numerous attached work camps. The only one I have listed so far is Gmund. The numbers listed in Oct 1918 are low and indicate that the number of work places at that time was not great and some of the work camps therefore may have been reallocated elsewhere.

Minden is listed in the following;

Miscellaneous No 19 (1915) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8108

Miscellaneous No 26 (1916) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8297

In the first it is stated that the British have all been removed from Minden. (Sept 1915). There is also a reference to Minden II containing British prior to this.

In the second it is stated that there are 301 British NCO's (out of 11 000) (17th April 1916). These NCO's had been assembled here from Friedrichsfeld, Dulmen, Munster I and II and Sennelager II and III. This report carries a good description of the camp, too long for me to copy out at the moment but it refers to six sections in the camp. That would seem to indicate that there were two separate camps. Although it was denied that this was a Straffe camp, the lack of priviledges and that some of the men were known to have had problems at their other camps however, tells a different story. NB it is hinted this may have been confined to the British but since the inspector was only interested in the British this is not entirely clear. NB the food was stated as being good!

Two of the men are named as Sgt Maj Booth and Sgt Maj Crack.

The camp clearly changed after being a straffe camp and British men were sent here after April 1916. Later still all the British were moved out again.

I have not re-read the section in McCarthy's book so there may be more information in that.

Doug

[TheMixMonkey]

That's really great info Doug, thank you!

I'm finding that all the responses here are just opening up more questions than answering any though haha. Fascinating stuff!

[Aaron Pegram]

Someone mentioned Minden as a "Strafe" camp . Isn't that a "punishment" camp ? Is that different from an ordinary POW camp ?

Hi Linden,

Thats right, it was. See my post above.

A.

[TheMixMonkey]

I have finally signed up to Ancestry and found my Grandfathers medical records (no service records though unfortunately). They start at 1919, so should give some insight to the wounds he recived in battle, and possible treatment (or mis-treatment) while a PoW. /excited

[ARMAGH]

Hello

I am also interested in POW camps in Minden, I visit the Minden area every year, and only recently found out about the POW camps, no one knows?? I was stationed there 1964 to 1965, at Elizabeth Bk's. I am interested in BW & RIF Regiments.

Hello there, this is my first post, so be nice

I am currently researching history about two of my Great Grandfathers who both served in WW1.

For my Mother's, Mother's Father, Cpl Arthur Abbs Suffolk Regiment 7th Battalion, 12152, I am fortunate to have in my possession his campaign medals (1914-15 star, British War Medal and Victory Medal, as well as 1939-45 medal and Defence medal from Home Guard service in WW2), his Suffolk Regiment cap badge, miscellaneous buttons (marked Royal Engineers of all things =/ ) and a fantastic photograph taken at Minden PoW camp with two other soldiers.

From left to right:

Cpl Arthur Abbs, Suffolk Regiment 7th Battalion

Cpl Foxwell (?), Scots Guards

Sgt Bond, West Yorks

Photograph taken by Ernst Kracht

On the reverse of the photo, it just said 'taken at Minden 1917'. I wondered why he would be in Germany in 1917, and it really didn't click that he was PoW as nobody in the family had ever mentioned it (or knew of it). After a bit of digging I discovered there was a PoW camp at Minden and it all made sense. There is a (very faded) stamp on the reverse and you can just make out 'Gefangenen-Lager Minden', which confirms it. Unfortunately after scouring the Internet for information about the place, I have come up with very little. A few old photographs and the current location of the old PoW camp.

Information request:

Does anyone have any useful/interesting information about the PoW camp at Minden or the other two soldiers or my random questions?

-Who were sent there? Particular nationalities/regiments/ranks

-What happened to the prisoners after the war ended. What was the procedure undertaken?

-What is the best place to find PoW records for Minden? I heard the International Red Cross might be the best place. Would the town of Minden itself be worth trying too?

-Does anyone know anything about the other two men in the photo? What happened to them after the war ended? Although a long shot without even their first names or regiment numbers.

-Why might he have had Royal Engineer buttons? Would these have been field repairs perhaps? I know re-supplying from fallen comrades was commonplace in WW2, but did it happen in WW1 also? I also have a brass badge of the word 'Queens' I am assuming something to do with the Queens Regiment. I cannot start to imagine how he came in possession of that badge.

I am planning to visit the Suffolk Regiment museum this weekend in a hope to find some information about his battalions engagements during the war. I know he visited home at some point, I believe due to being injured and going back again, but now after learning he was PoW i'm wondering whether he was injured prior to capture and his visit home was leave from the front perhaps?

Unfortunately as a WW2 enthusiast, my knowledge of The Great War is severely lacking, hence my enquiries here. Thank you in advance for any information any of you may have!

Chris

[Saints & Sinners]

I was posted to Minden in 1983 and can confirm that the POW camp was located at the site of St Georges Barracks - Minderheide. Just inside the Main Gate on the right there was a monument complete with some photographs of the then camp & a map.

[bts1970]

Hi

You may of seen my intrest in Minden elsewhere on the forum

Bit of a mystery to try & resolve. One of the lads on the memorial is listed as below

25773 Private WILLIAM CHARLES EVELEIGH.

6th Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment.

Enlisted in Swindon. Died whilst a Prisoner Of War in Germany aged 30 on the 24th October 1918.

Son of Thomas and Mercy, Wife Eva station road

Remembered on the TYNE COT MEMORIAL, Panel 119/ 120.

The Remembrance book states burial at Minden in Germany

My query iwas that although stated as being a POW & dying whilst in captivity he is listed on the tyne cot Memorial panels for the Wilts. However the detail taken from the Church remembrance book states that he is buried in Minden ( I am aware of a POW camp there )

But there is more to this little tale...........

The Book that i am currently reading " Swindons War record" ( 1922 W D Bavin ) records that "Pte Eveleigh did of starvation on his way home after the Armistace was signed". CWGC has no other Wilts lads names Everleigh recorded as dying 1918 so i am taking him as my man. CWGC replied to my letter & stated that he may be recorded on Tyne cot as it was close to where he was initially captured. I have sent a letter to IRC in Geneva to see what details they may have.

Bob

[ARMAGH]

Minden pow Camp

In Minden there is a Prussia Museum in the old barracks across from Simeons strasse and the Holiday Inn, maybe they have the information we are looking for?

[KevinBattle]

Doh!! Just got to the end of this thread AFTER posting for Seasider70, only to find he'd already found it!!

Also thought I'd been clever to enlarge camp roads and found one shown as Lager Strasse (Camp Street??) but that has also been confirmed.

Still, an interesting read.

I note that the condition and appearance of the PoW's in the initial photo seem cheerful(ish) and not malnourished, so presumably shortly after capture? Their uniforms look in good condition too, and I would have thought that when captured they would have been in khaki battledress. Was it likely that the Germans had access to a large number of uniforms (from dead British etc soldiers) that were available to replace the stained or torn uniforms they had been captured in?? That might explain the presence of RE buttons, other regiments badges etc either by PoWs trying to maintain appearances or simply "recycled" cleared and repaired uniforms. Sheer speculation of course.

Am I correct in understanding that there seem to be a lot of PoW's "on the loose" prior to the Armistice? What is the explanation, please? I can't believe the Germans were releasing them willingly assuming that they were about to sign the Armistice. Also I would think that the German population would be bitterly hostile in view of the privations of the naval blockade, so would do absolutely nothing (even if anything to spare) for any released prisoners.

[Doug Johnson]

Hi,

The prisoners would have been receiving food parcels regularly so would have been reasonably well fed, enough to not have to eat any food supplied by the Germans. They would also be receiving regular issues of uniforms from their own regiment. There were prisoners "on the loose" caused by the revolution that was taking place though I think this was generally after the armistice. Also immediately after the armistice some prisoners found themselves without food from the Germans so they walked out of the camp. Before the armistice there were prisoners scattered in work locations all over Germany. Although hated by the population earlier in the war, by the end they were accepted much the same as German PoWs were in Britain. Many of them were getting on well with their employers. The German population do not seem to have been hostile to their enemies as much as they were to their own government, which is why the revolution took place. The German population suffered a great deal with food shortages etc, all well and good if you win but to make those sacrifices and loose is another matter and it seems like a large proportion of the population knew that they were not going to win for some months before the end.

Doug

[bts1970]

Kevin

Many thanks for your post for the link. Lots of good background info to take in.

The next part of my search will happen after i have recieved the details from Geneva when hopefully i will have more info to go on. It is a little confusing my own search as he was recieveing parcels from home but then is stated as dying of starvation after the end of the War making his way home, did he actually recieve the parcels/were they taken by the guards were they ..... were they..... were they...... to many open ended questions.

As i say rather than get to bogged down i will await the IRC search results

thanks again to all

Bob

[grantowi]

Bob,

According to the Swindon Committee, they included a small postcard in with the parcel for the soldier to send home confirming that he had recieved the parcel - parcels were all numbered - to ensure they were reaching the prisioners

Grant

[TheMixMonkey]

International Red Cross got back to me at the weekend (was delighted to see the letter on saturday morning) and it says he was captured on July 3 1916 near Albert, and looking at the events I am guessing that he was captured at or near Ovillers. 35th Brigade objective was Ovillers on that day, and 5th Berkshire and 7th Suffolk were the attacking Batallions, and they advanced to the 3rd line of German trenches. They didn't get reinforced though as 9th Essex in support suffered heavy losses from german machineguns on the flanks. I am guessing perhaps the Germans reinforced at that point and killed/captured the remaining attackers, but that is speculation. He was held at Le Cataeu before being taken to Minden 3 weeks later.

One thing I find strange is that although he arrived in Southampton on 25/11/18, his repatriation date is listed as May 25th 1918 (via Holland)....that seems ridiculously early to me, or did they start sending prisoners back this early? Overcrowding in camps perhaps? Or is it just a mistake on the documens CICR found?

[Doug Johnson]

tmm,

Dates are OK. Repatriation started as early as 1915 to the UK for the wounded who clearly were not going to recover to be of further military use and then repatriation to Switzerland for certain classes of sick and wounded and then to Holland. The scheme was then opened up for those long term captured officers and then extended (briefly is appears) to NCO's. So either he got sick or was one of the long term NCO's selected for repatriation and internment in a neutral country.

Doug

[TheMixMonkey]

Thanks Doug. From his pension records it shows he suffered a gunshot wound to the head (below his left ear) and suffered severe headaches on a (initially) weekly basis, though reduced in frequency over time. Also mentions a small heart problem which i have been unable to translate thus far (typical doctors handwriting haha). No mention of any kind of illness though, but i'll have to have another look. So it certainly seems he could have been released due to health concerns. He must have recovered well though(from the physical wounds at least) as he lived until he was 84

Chris

[bts1970]

Afternoon all

After a long patient wait the envelope from Geneva arrived today with details of William (Who i was led to believe was in Minden ) & my other POW intrest Bert Fisher.

Good news - They identified the date & place of capture . 10/04/1918 Wytschaete & state he was present at Friedrichsfelds coming from the western front( list dated 04/09/1914). They even identified him as being A company 6th Wilts which will help me narrow down the exact location for the unit.

Bad news (sort of) - No details of death/ date location etc. Now i don`t know how to take this really, this may confirm that he died outside of a POW camp in line with Bavins book details, obviously doesn`t give a date of death etc, or does it mean that simply the Red Cross don`t have archived D.O.D for him ??????

Something to be going on with, to be honest i didn`t think i would be closing this chapter of research yet , good luck to all who search

Bob

[Doug Johnson]

Hi Bob,

This is turning interesting. My guess as to a possible sequal of events is as follows;

1. He went missing on the 10th April 1918.

2. He was working behind the lines for several months until he was no longer fit to work (basically starved and worked until he dropped)

3. Was he reported presumed killed in action as there was no report of him being a PoW?

4. He was eventually reported as a PoW on a German Red Cross list (04/09/1918 - five months later), registered at Friedrichsfeld. Friedrichsfeld is a camp where it is noted that other PoWs arrived in a near starved condition after working behind the lines. It is also possible that he was not moved there but merely registered there when he entered Germany (if in fact he did enter Germany). He could have had his registration transferred to Minden without him going anywhere else.

5. He died on the 24th October 1918 of starvation. The time from the list dated 04th Oct to 24th Oct would not be sufficient time for him to start receiving parcels so he would have probably had to try to stay alive on German food. There are reports of others arriving in camps in poor condition and dying shortly after. The other possibility is that he died in transit. He could then have been reported to have died by the camp but not to have been buried there.

So why is he listed on a memorial to the missing? Is it an administration problem with him already being reported as presumed killed, the guy having died twice? There is no reference to any graves being lost at Minden so if he was buried there then there would be a grave at Hamburg where they were re-interred after the war. Was his grave not found so the report of his second death was discounted? More questions than answers!

Doug

[bts1970]

Doug

You have just about put your finger on all my questions.

You know after trying everywhere to get information on William i waited 6 hours for my wife to finish work today & open the letter from Geneva whilst saying to her please tell me it says where he died....... but no.

At least his place of capture ties in with CWGC explaination of him being in the salient at point of capture & so put on the tyne cot memorial tablets, however i am still troubled by his lack of known burial plot. On ancestry a member has him on a family tree & has quoted his place of death as Potsdam, Germany. She is a resident of Australia & believes that information may of come from a member of the Eveleigh family.

To be honest i am lost as to where to go next, Red Cross was my big hope.

Best regards

Bob

[bts1970]

Doug

In my origional thread in the soldiers section another PAL has stated that he was recieving food parcels (or at least on the list from Spring 1918) from the Swindon comforts committee

origional thread title below (Soldiers)

POW mystery to resolve, 25773 Private WILLIAM CHARLES EVELEIGH.6th Wilts

Bob