siajam Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 Hi, I have a purely factual question on the SaD issue - I've been told that among those 'shot at dawn' there were 8 Welshmen, but have had no luck so far in verifying this. Can anyone here verify this number for me? (or tell me where to look - maybe I just haven't found the right source yet). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 The book "Shot at Dawn" might be your best source. That said, would you be meaning Welshmen or men who served with Welsh regiments. The latter would be easy to establish; the former probably impossible. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siajam Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 I have ordered that book from the library, but it's not in yet. Ideally, I'd like to know the number of men from Wales, (since Welsh soldiers often served in regiments other than Welsh regiments of course ...a great deal of cross-referencing ahead for me I think), but the number of those from Welsh regiments would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 This will require in depth researching, man by man and will be far from easy. The Army did not record nationality. A man who lived in Cardiff and joined the RWF might be a good bet but there is no guarantee that he is in fact Welsh. Will you call a man born and raised in London of Welsh parents a Welshman? After 1916, men were sent to the regiment next on the list. Scots to English regiments, Welsh to the Black Watch and so on. How about a man with an Irish name who is in fact the third generation to live and work in the valleys. Is he Welsh? he speaks it, married a Welsh girl but his name is still Murphy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siajam Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 All valid points that are relevant to defining other nationalities too, and that I'm all too well aware of. I only asked if anyone could verify the 8 out of 306 in case it was just me not being able to find it anywhere. Since I realise there is no quick way (in some cases probably no way at all) of revealing any evidence as to parentage/language spoken/birthplace/etc, to say who was 'truly' Welsh, looking at those in Welsh regiments and those whose parents lived in Wales is as good a starting point as any. By the way, "Will you call a man born and raised in London of Welsh parents a Welshman?" - yes I would. "How about a man with an Irish name who is in fact the third generation to live and work in the valleys. Is he Welsh? he speaks it, married a Welsh girl but his name is still Murphy." - good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 29 August , 2008 Share Posted 29 August , 2008 I was pointing out that it is not possible to draw up a definitive list of people who are Welsh or Scots or any other nationality, with which everyone would agree. If I am correct in my assertion then it is not possible for others to confirm or deny your list as being correct. This should not affect your research. You should go ahead but with the knowledge that there may be men who could be included but are not and others who are included but possibly should not be. Your list will be as good as anyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 You might get somewhere if you have the patience to cross-relate the SAD list with Soldiers Died, which gives each man's birthplace, but not every SAD is listed in Soldiers Died, and in any case it may well be a tedious exercise. It is, however, perhaps the route to the most reliable answer. Don't forget the 40 or so shot for murder, at least two of whom were from The Welsh Regiment. They are not included in the figure of 306. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soilsister Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 just a postcard relating to the shot at dawns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilD Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 Having recently visited the 'Shot at Dawn Museum' in Poperinge I have very mixed feelings about this topic. I agree with those who say that each case should be taken on its own merits. Not all those executed where done so for 'cowardise', indeed from the information I read only a minority fell into that catergory. Those we should pardon. The majority where serial deserters, murderers, rapists etc and IMHO deserved their execution. Those that fall in that catergory most certainly do not deserve to be pardoned. Again IMHO the blanket pardoning of these soldier has pandered to PC brigade without much thought. IMHO. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siajam Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 You might get somewhere if you have the patience to cross-relate the SAD list with Soldiers Died, which gives each man's birthplace, but not every SAD is listed in Soldiers Died, and in any case it may well be a tedious exercise. It is, however, perhaps the route to the most reliable answer. Don't forget the 40 or so shot for murder, at least two of whom were from The Welsh Regiment. They are not included in the figure of 306. Ron I have managed to get hold of a list of the 306 (although not a list for the other 40 or so) and cross reference it with the CWGC list. Not all of them appear on this list either, and often there is little more information than I have already, but at least it has given the parents' home towns in some instances. I now have a figure of 10 soldiers from Welsh regiments and/or parents living in Wales. Of course, as I said in an earlier post, I'm well aware that this is not neccessarily an indication that the soldier was Welsh, but it's as good a starting point as any. The Soldiers Died CD looks fantastic (I saw the online demo) but unfortunately is way, way out of my budget, and the detailed records from Soldiers Died through the IWM are still too pricey for me, but I'll register and try the free general searches - might just squeeze a bit more info from those. Thanks for pointing me at that database, Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 If you live in the UK and are a WFA member, contact your local Branch Chairman. Every branch should have a copy of the Soldiers Died CD-ROM. They are for the use of all WFA members, not just the branch chairman! Putkowski and Sykes' "Shot at Dawn" has the full list including the murders. You can probably discount members of the Macedonian Mule Corps, Anglo-Slavic Penal Battalion and Chinese Labour Corps, although those pesky Welshmen do get everywhere! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 I have managed to get hold of a list of the 306 (although not a list for the other 40 or so) and cross reference it with the CWGC list. Not all of them appear on this list either ... Sorry if this has already been mentioned but shouldnt the names missing from the CWGC be a job for our Non-commemorations team, certainly for the 306 executed? Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 shouldnt the names missing from the CWGC be a job for our Non-commemorations team, certainly for the 306 executed? No problem, Jon. In due course, the project should pick up any listed on the GRO overseas deaths list who are not CWGC commemorated. If anyone wants to speed up the process, if they obtain the death certificate, we can submit it to CWGC on their behalf. John (PS - LRM2008 - you'll probably find your nearest local heritage library has a copy of SDGW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 John - thanks for the confirmation. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 I have managed to get hold of a list of the 306 (although not a list for the other 40 or so) and cross reference it with the CWGC list. Not all of them appear on this list either LRM2008 If you have spotted any with surnames beginning A - D, I'd appreciate it if you would drop me a PM/email with the names. We can then see if we've picked them up for submission or if they are there(in CWGC) with slightly different details (which is the usual reason for not immediately finding a name). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 LRM2008, There is also the book 'Blindfold and Alone' which also deals with Great War executions. Roxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 'Blindfold and Alone' It's very good, IMO. Puts the issue into a much wider historical/social context and should be read alongside Babbington & Putkowski's books. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messina1915 Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 Stumbled across one naming error on CWGC. 34595 Private James Crampton, 9th Yorks and Lancaster Regiment, executed for desertion on 04/02/1917, is recorded on CWGC as Grampton. Cheers, Carole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 Carole This could be tricky as there is conflicting information. His listing in the GRO Overseas Deaths is as Crampton but we know there are many errors in that record. His medal index card is for Grampton. Dunno how we can resolve that one - unless anyone can find other official (or semi-official) documentation to confirm it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messina1915 Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 John, Thought I would mention it as I'd come across it in passing and thought it might be an error, but if his MIC says Grampton it's possible that the websites listing him as Crampton copied an error in the GRO. He could have been either! Cheers, Carole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 Hi Carole New information "just in" confirms that, if it is an error, then it dates back to the immediate postwar period. The original cemetery register also has it as Grampton. Seems as though Grampton was the name he served under even if his real one might have been Crampton. We'll probably never know but there's certainly nowt to go to CWGC with, as thing stand. Ta for raising it though. Better to have checked than missed an opportunity. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 We'll probably never know but there's certainly nowt to go to CWGC with, as thing stand. Hi John, You could always let them know that there has never been a single birth registered in England or Wales with the surname Grampton in the period 1837 to 1910 - just checked on FreeBMD. Stuart edit: or Scotland 1855 to 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 3 September , 2008 Share Posted 3 September , 2008 How do you define a coward ? Based on my own feelings, everyone who went there was a hero, remember a lot of these people volunteered to go and fight for their Country Grant Here Here! Absolutely!! Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 September , 2008 Share Posted 4 September , 2008 Stuart Yep, I'd checked as well. It simply isnt "evidence" that would persuade them to change. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 4 September , 2008 Share Posted 4 September , 2008 its a very sad and disturbing busines this 'sad' episode. just a question on the firing squads, would they have been volunteers or were they detailed off. is there any cases of soldiers refusing to take part ??..... mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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