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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

shot at dawn


willy

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Willy,

Where have you seen an announcement that the ban on discussion of this subject has been lifted? There's been an announcement refining the rules on advertising, but I've seen nothing about SAD.

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I think that it would be completely impossible to give a generic answer to that question! You'd have to look at every case and I suspect its simply not possible at this distance in time, we just don't have the evidence. As I type this I can see out of my study window the roof of a cottage in which once lived a sergeant who was shot. All we have today are the raw facts, he retreated from an attack but as to his state of mind, motives or whatever it is impossible to say.

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How do you define a coward ?

Based on my own feelings, everyone who went there was a hero, remember a lot of these people volunteered to go and fight for their Country

Grant

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SiegeGunner - there is a new announcement on the forum front page

Alan

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How do you define a coward ?

Based on my own feelings, everyone who went there was a hero, remember a lot of these people volunteered to go and fight for their Country

Grant

Couldn't agree more

Neil

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Siege Gunner, the announcement is here. I must admit I did a double take at first and wasn't sure that Willy was correct, but I soon found the announcement.

Cheers,

Carole.

Oops, Magic Rat and I posted at the same time :lol:

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I'm not convinced that this is the best way to re-introduce the topic. IMHO, you cannot tar all those individuals with the same brush - each should be taken on its own merit. Here's hoping thatthis is not the last thread regarding the execution of British Empire military and naval personnel during the Great War.

Roxy

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On a serious note, how many men were sentenced to death, but were fortunate to get a reprieve?

Neil

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Willy,

Were there any reports of men shot whilst suffering from shell shock?

or were they classed as coward's because they couldn't / didn't understand what was being asked of them ?

Grant

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According to Corns and Hughes-Wilson in 'Blindfold and Alone', 18 men were executed for cowardice. Incidentally, 35 were executed for murder.

Roxy

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I think it's difficult to generalise - we are talking about 300+ individual cases here. I saw a "Not Forgotten" programme on Channel 4 a while back on soldiers shot at dawn and it emphasised to me that each case needs to be taken on it's own merits. In my opinion, there definitely were injustices, but I would never generalise when I've only ever heard the details of a few cases. We have to remember that this was a society that couldn't accept men who acted against what was considered to be their duty, not that that totally excuses shooting shell-shocked men - which was what happened in some of the cases - please note the some, I'm not saying that was what happened in every case, as I said before every case needs to be treated on it's merits.

Just adding my £0.02.

Cheers,

Carole.

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So if Shell shock wasn't recognised,

how many of thoses suffering were branded as cowards ?

Grant

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My tuppence worth - I think we can sensibly talk about individual cases, but from a historical and not moral point of view. In the end, I would have thought any right versus wrong discussion will end up with a lot of heat and very little light.

Alan

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Again, from 'Blindfold and Alone' (there are other books on Great War executions!)

2 executions for casting away arms

18 executions for cowardice

266 executions for desertion

5 executions for disobedience

35 executions for murder

7 executions for quitting post

2 executions for sleeping at post

4 executions for striking a superior officer

1 execution for violence

Roxy

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On a serious note, how many men were sentenced to death, but were fortunate to get a reprieve?

Neil

Neil,

I don't know about men sentenced to death on all charged and reprieved, but I do know that 30+ absolutist conscientious objectors were shipped to France, charged with refusing to obey orders (or whatever the formal wording for that was) - which of course was a capital offence in a war zone - court martialled, sentenced to death but then had their sentences commuted to penal servitude.

Had those death sentences been carried out, they would have probably become even more controversial today than the sentences on those men who were actually shot at dawn.

Cheers, Carole.

P.S. Can't believe that this is my 300th post, I've only been on the forum for 2 months!

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18 for cowardice?

We must surely have had the bravest Army going,18 out of 5 or so millions!

Desertion,I can sort of understand as discipline during war is all.

Its not something I've thought about before but did learn a bit about the French sad cases,men picked at random from a list of regts. & just shot...as an 'example' for Gods sake.

Now that gets my hackles up...

Dave,off for a draught Leffe brune :P

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Heh,Carole!Welcome to Skindles,mate!

I read a fiction book,cant recall the title but it was very well done ,about conshies in the Great War & they were shipped to France & Belgium to work(usually with RAMC type jobs)but in the UK,they had been made to ship arms & ammo until they found out what they were moving when,of course,they 'downed tools'.

They were then threatened with capital punishment .Great book & I think the author had done a lot of research.

Wish I could recall his name.I'd love to buy it(was a library book).

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Reading down Roxys list, with the exception of the murder cases, ALL of the rest could have been attributed to shell shock, or the reality of the horror's of war.

This happened in a period when mens lives were relativly cheap (ie cannon fodder) and I guess it was easy to class those who were ill as cowards and get rid of them

But these men had left families and loved ones to fight for their country and for their country to repay them like this is unforgivable.

As we sit here 90 years on, we know all about these illness's, how can we still justify calling these men cowards ?

Grant

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'Blindfold and Alone' again,

238000 courts martial

3080 death sentences

346 executions carried out

551 courts martial for cowardice

7371 courts martial for desertion - approx 3000 resulted in a death sentence

Roxy

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Heh,Carole!Welcome to Skindles,mate!

I read a fiction book,cant recall the title but it was very well done ,about conshies in the Great War & they were shipped to France & Belgium to work(usually with RAMC type jobs)but in the UK,they had been made to ship arms & ammo until they found out what they were moving when,of course,they 'downed tools'.

They were then threatened with capital punishment .Great book & I think the author had done a lot of research.

Wish I could recall his name.I'd love to buy it(was a library book).

Can't help with your fiction book, but the non-fiction book I read was We Will Not Fight by Will Ellsworth-Jones, which I would highly recommend.

Cheers, Carole.

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Grant,

Can you explain how you can attribute 'violence' and 'striking a superior officer' to shell shock, but not 'murder'?

Roxy

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Personally, I have no doubt that some of the Great War executions were a result of shell-shock; to determine how many, the evidence would have to be properly reviewed. Furthermore, I also have no doubt that many of the death sentences that were carried out were as a result of due judicial process. Whether or not the act of executing someone following judicial process is proper is a differnt question; however, what has to be taken into account is that 'the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.'

Roxy

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