The Last Post ceremony

[Matt Dixon]

I was reading an article recently (and I'm afraid I can't remember in which publication it was) that was talking about the cost to the town of Ypres of staging the last post ceremony each evening.

My question is this (and this was the theme of the article, I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest here by being deliberately contraversial):

The article suggested that one of the main reason that the last post is played is because it generates so much income for the town in terms of tourists coming to hear it played, that the town couldn't afford the loss of revenue that would come from not playing it. It argued that economic benefits were outweighing the historical symbolism of the performance. When it ceases to generate revenue for the town, then that is the time that it will stop being played (or at least stop being played so frequently)

I believe that it should be kept going a regardless of whether it brings in tourism it is a poignant and moving gesture; I didn't write the article and I don't particularly agree with it either, but it was something that has made me think, so I wondered what the other Pals felt about this.

[dycer]

As I understand it, the Fireman started the tradition in response to the sacrifice that had been made to secure Ypres.

I am sure the more learned will confirm that following the Town's liberation in WW2 one of the first things that happened was the recommencing of "The Last Post"

We have discussed the "tourist" benefits in a post below but I suppose the question that must be asked is why do the Fireman continue with the ceremony?Is it because of tourist revenue or because they ahave not forgotten the sacrifice?

As an aside the same could be argued about the London, Trafalger Square, Christmas Tree.It is an annual gift from Norway because of Britain's support during WW2.No economic benefit to Norway just an ongoing desire to say thank you.

I hope both traditions outlive us all.

George

[salientpoints]

I raised the same point a while back - again whilst not stirring a hornets nest and I have no desire to see anything fade away as I would donate to the Last Post Assocition more to keep it going, I would not be surprised if it ever moved to say only weekends...of course we may all be gone by then

I'll say no more

[AndyHollinger]

Not to be Marxist ... or at least what popular historians consider "Marxist" but everything comes down to economics. But, this is not in some macro sense - it is a very personal sense ... it comes down to a group of people and what they're willing to do and why.

Today, for this sort of tradition to continue, people have to either want to do it or be willing to pay for it to be done and be willing to go through with it.

A very real example is the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham. The "Benefit" is weighed against the time, hassle and expense of having the musicians, guardsmen, etc actually go through with it. Decisions are made accordingly. Public furor is measured against the likely affects of such furor - politically, which is, in its last analysis - economically.

For Ypres to go through with this, if the guys are willing to learn and play (sometimes to an empty "house") is the town willing to shut down for those minutes at that time. As long as they can find the firemen and the local merchants don't mind, it'll be done. Once there are complaints or they have to hire someone to play the bugle or pay to train those things, other decisions might be made. Remember here, we're talking about respect for people long gone and, in the gross majority of people, forgotten.

During the late 19th C ... every town in America ... at least among the states involved ... children would put flowers on the graves of Civil War Veterans - what happens now? "Live forever" is, in terms of human actions, a relative thing. We hardly "remember" those who died in the Spanish American War - heck, in the US we hardly remember the war ... in Britain, I suppose you could do the same for the Boer War ...

We enthusiasts have a hard time keeping things in perspective when you look at the general population. We're the "crack-pots" who care ... On the bright side, my understanding of the requirement in British schools for each student to study, visit and write about the war is a good sign that the Rememberance will go on longer ... we don't do that in the US ...

Lament and argue, political activity will help ... but, sooner or later ... we, too shall slide into the dustbin of history.

[John_Hartley]

I am fortunate that, as a Brit, I have never had to suffer from my country being invaded (let alone twice).

I'll leave it to our Belgian Pals to comment on how long they think it will last.

John

[dycer]

Andy,

You raise an interesting point about the "Changing of the Guard" being done for the tourists.

As an ex-soldier(not Guards) I would suggest it is done to ceremonially guard the Sovereign and the men participating to do not give a "fig" for the tourists.I agree the politicians do interfere but I think the Queen has the final say in arrangements.

As regards looking after graves.I've got a feeling the school-children in Arnhem still adopt a grave but as John says neither the UK or USA have been invaded recently.

George.

[Somme1916]

I am sure the more learned will confirm that following the Town's liberation in WW2 one of the first things that happened was the recommencing of "The Last Post"

George,

You are correct.

As I've heard it told the battle for the town was still on going but nearing its end on 2 Sep 44 when 2000 hrs rolled around. At that time a lone bugler took his post under the Gate and sounded last post. That story has always touched me.

All,

I’m sure we’ll here from our Pals from the Last Post Association on this. My advice is not to overreact but to pause until we here from a first hand source; Jacky P we need you.

Jon

[Aurel Sercu]

I was reading an article recently (and I'm afraid I can't remember in which publication it was) that was talking about the cost to the town of Ypres of staging the last post ceremony each evening.

(...)

The article suggested that one of the main reason that the last post is played is because it generates so much income for the town in terms of tourists coming to hear it played, that the town couldn't afford the loss of revenue that would come from not playing it. It argued that economic benefits were outweighing the historical symbolism of the performance. When it ceases to generate revenue for the town, then that is the time that it will stop being played (or at least stop being played so frequently)

Matt,

If ever you meet the writer, tell him that I always feel suspicious about people who try to find something bad in other people's good intentions. It says more about the person who writes that than about the ones he (sort of) criticizes.

And that he cannot expect us to be ashamed of the "economical benefits".

Aurel

(Ypres)

[Somme1916]

Pals,

I sent an email to Jacky Platteeuw who, as many of you know, is a member of the Last Post Association. I've asked him to look at this tread and comment.

Jon

[ianw]

One only has to see the pride with which the buglers and organisers carry out their Last Post duties to know that the over-riding motives for its continuance are not financial. It's about tradition, Remembrance , duty , honour, values and all those other unfashionable things. Cash doesn't come into it.

As a serial Last Post ceremony attendee, all I can say is that it never fails to deliver that "tingle factor" and for that reason people will continue to participate and attend. That said, we must all actively cherish it's purity and defend it's traditions, else our gaze might be diverted only to find it changed or devalued. Good job we have friends in Ypres keeping a weather eye on things for us.

[paul guthrie]

There are plenty of things to worry about & this aint one of em. They did it when there was little interest in the 50's & 60's, they do it for respect & tradition. The crowds have grown a great deal since I was first there in 1997.

Yes it's good for the economy of Ieper but they did it when there were few visitors.

By the way you do want to read Last Post & Menin Gate by Domineek Dendooven of IFF Museum, one of the speakers during US Branch WFA to Ieper last year when I was so priviliged to recite the Exhortation at Last Post. Thanks Jacky.

[Matt Dixon]

Aurel,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Of course there is benefit to the town of Ypres in conducting the last post ceremony, but I think for the writer to suggest that the only reason it carries on is because the town can't afford to stop, shows not only a lack of understanding, but also respect as well.

I am racking my brain to remember where I read this, but if I do I will PM it to you.

As I said in the very first post, I know this is contraversial, but the views I have highlighted are not mine, I was rather throwing this to the arena to see what the opinion of other Pals was, and whether anyone agreed or disagreed with the author.

Having been at the Menin Gate and heard it, long may it last, a more fitting tribute I cannot think of.

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I think someone send me a copy of this article but it was so 'interesting' that I classified it in the bin.

No doubt that the Last Post is a major economic factor in Ieper but this doesn't reflect on the Ceremony itself. The Ceremony is organised by the Last Post Association (a Charity Fund) which acts totally independant. Financially it depends entirely of donations from different sources.

I don't think the Ceremony is in any danger as long as people really want to involve themselves: I can assure you this isn't a problem.

One can argue about some kind of loss of the solemn character due to the success and ever growing amount of people taking part in it. Indeed sometimes it is noisy or people start to clap after the Ceremony, etc. but for instance the schoolchildren are no more or less a warrant for the future.

Jacky

[salientpoints]

We enthusiasts have a hard time keeping things in perspective when you look at the general population. We're the "crack-pots" who care ... On the bright side, my understanding of the requirement in British schools for each student to study, visit and write about the war is a good sign that the Rememberance will go on longer ... we don't do that in the US ...

This certainly wasn't true when I was at school, from 4-11 or 11-16. There was no curriculum to learn about the war in particular.

The only time I learnt about the war at school was from a teacher who served in the RAF. He was 'old school' smoked in the classroom, flicked ash on your books and had models of warplanes all over the place... fascinating and the best teacher I ever had - cannot remember exact age but about 9-10

Thereafter when school/college really counted re: qualifications etc all I was left with in British history for a GCSE was 'British Social & Economic History 1750 to present' - yawn! what a waste of my time.

Another class did do WW1 & WW2 - it was purely down to what teacher you had and what their interest was in.

Maybe its different now but somehow I doubt 'new labour' likes to wallow in Britain's glorious empirical past?

Ryan

[Glenn]

I'd heard a recent story that a Belgian government official asked the same question but was pacified with the answer that it will stop when they had completed the Last Post for each of the names listed on the memorial. Fortunately, I understand that to be some far date in the long distance future.

Glenn

[Matt Dixon]

If one playing equals one name, there must be some boffin out there who can tell us on this basis when the last last post will be played!

[ianw]

We must have only had 25,000 or so ceremonies so far so a considerable way to go yet !

[Somme1916]

To keep from being called a “boffin”, what ever that is , I’ve only done the rough math. My count shows approximately 25,550 ceremonies played so far and considering there are about 54,000 names on the Gate then this means we have about 28,450 ceremonies to go. Based on this plan/math that means there is still more than 77 years of ceremonies to play.

Best guess,

Jon

[Mark Hone]

Ryan,

It is now very difficult to 'avoid' studying World War I if you are at school, either in the so-called Key Stage 3, usually in the third year of senior school, or increasingly as part of the GCSE History course. The war poets are also widely studied in English. The detail in which it is taught, together with the expertise and enthusiasm of the teacher obviously varies, but I have to report that textbooks are now beginning to cover the subject in a more sophisticated way than hitherto. A vast number of schools also now do battlefields tours, compared to even five years ago.

[salientpoints]

It is now very difficult to 'avoid' studying World War I if you are at school, either in the so-called Key Stage 3, usually in the third year of senior school, or increasingly as part of the GCSE History course. The war poets are also widely studied in English. The detail in which it is taught, together with the expertise and enthusiasm of the teacher obviously varies, but I have to report that textbooks are now beginning to cover the subject in a more sophisticated way than hitherto. A vast number of schools also now do battlefields tours, compared to even five years ago.

Oh how I wish I was back at school now.... choices might be different!

[john w.]

Long may it continue....

John

[shinglma]

I wish you could remember where the original article was written - I should like to read it and make my feelings known to the author.

One of the things which never fails to move me about the Last Post ceremony, is the thought that night upon night the people of Ieper pay their respect to our forefathers who died in the defence of the town.

If there be economic benefits so be it - but I hope that none of our friends in Belgium take offence by the cynicism of this article.

I can only add my thanks that you take the trouble to hold the ceremony.

It is appreciated by us all.

[healdav]

Last year I took a group of school girls around the trenches and cemeteries of the St. Mihiel salient.

Why?

They were studying British World War One poets for their baccalaureat.

I wonder whether anyone has ever studied French World War One poets for their 'A' Level French?

On the 75th anniversary of the start of the verdun battle I went to a small village not far away and the mayor had decreed that the children in the primary school would visit Verdun with guides (at the village's expense) and afterwards they wrote poetry (the best read out at the ceremony) and drew pictures of what they imagined the battle to have been like.

They still have a commemoration with flags and the Major General for Northern France to read an invocation at the cemetery and graves where men who died in a battle in the village in August 1914 are buried. We have lunch afterwards and all at the expense of the village.

'C'est normal' says the mayor.

What will happen when he leaves I don't know, but it has been going on for many years. In fact, they now pay the expanses of a man whose wife's father died in the village (the nearest there is now to a veteran).

These things are not forgotten. Although, you have to remember that the horrors of World War Two - which the British are only dimly aware of - have tended to overlay the horrors of World War One. Partly of course, because Grandad is still there to relate his part in it.

[johnreed]

I and my wife will be paying our first visit to Ieper and the surrounding area. We will be at the "Last Post Ceremony" on the 8th, 9th & 10th June paying our belated respects to my wifes Grandfathers Brother who is commemorated on the memorial. To him and all his fallen comrades who paid the ultimate sacrifice. May the ceremony continue for ever.

'A man is not dead until he is forgotten'

John

[Jim Gordon]

For many years now I have been under the impression (obviously mistaken) that the Menin Gate Last Post Ceremony was funded by the British Legion.

Regards

Jim Gordon