Macthomas Posted 10 October , 2006 Share Posted 10 October , 2006 Hi, Today at auction, I managed to purchase a World War One 1907 pattern bayonet and scabbard which both appear to be in very good overall condition other than being a bit dirty, mostly the scabbard (not surprising as they are over 90 years old) I would very much like to know how to clean them up a bit without causing any damage or taking off any of the age and hopefully, help to preserve them for another hundred years. Anyone know how to go about this. For any one that is interested the bayonet and scabbard appears (from what I have read on this site and others) to have been manufactured in October 1916 by Sanderson. on the top lip of the scabbard there is what look like the letters H C, I have no idea what these stand for. Below the frog button there are the letters RE I think this stands for Royal Enfield but am not sure. I would be very thankfull for any advice regards cleaning as this is my first purchase of a bayonet and I wouldn't want to ruin it by trying to clean it in the wrong way. Any other information would also be very welcome Thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted 10 October , 2006 Share Posted 10 October , 2006 For mine, I just apply a sparing portion of gun oil with a clean rag on the metal parts. This keeps the parts from rusting. Other than that, just making sure you wipe it down when you handle it, there isn't much you need to do. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 10 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2006 Thanks for that Teamski. I may not have been precise in what I wanted to know. My main point was, would it be OK to wash the scabbard down with a wet soapy cloth? as it is rather dirty or would this damage the leather? I assume it is leather? I do know that putting moisture on some items can cause them to swell and crack, is this likely to happen? Once it is clean would it be a good idea to give it a bit of a buff up using maybea little boot polish (if it is leather) just to make it look a bit more presentable as I do want to display it alongside some other WW1 items. I really dont want to take anything away from the item as a piece of history but I think the dirt is more modern than the item itself and is not adding anything to its appearance but at the same time I dont want it to look like it has just been manufactured. thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 10 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2006 One other thing, anyone know where I can get a rifle to fit on the end of it? I have seen Lee Enfields at auction before but which model would this bayonet by designed to fit onto? Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tafski Posted 10 October , 2006 Share Posted 10 October , 2006 Hi, Today at auction, I managed to purchase a World War One 1907 pattern bayonet and scabbard which both appear to be in very good overall condition other than being a bit dirty, mostly the scabbard (not surprising as they are over 90 years old) I would very much like to know how to clean them up a bit without causing any damage or taking off any of the age and hopefully, help to preserve them for another hundred years. Anyone know how to go about this. For any one that is interested the bayonet and scabbard appears (from what I have read on this site and others) to have been manufactured in October 1916 by Sanderson. on the top lip of the scabbard there is what look like the letters H C, I have no idea what these stand for. Below the frog button there are the letters RE I think this stands for Royal Enfield but am not sure. I would be very thankfull for any advice regards cleaning as this is my first purchase of a bayonet and I wouldn't want to ruin it by trying to clean it in the wrong way. Any other information would also be very welcome Thanks Ian as said before oil it and leave it alone bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 10 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2006 Ok Tafski and teamski, I will just oil it and leave it alone, I suppose I can live with the dirt. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I didn't catch the dirt on the scabbard. You should be able to use a cloth with warm water and soap. You will need to let the leather dry and treat it with something like "Neatsfoot" oil. You can check out a saddle shop to get the stuff you need. Neutral shoe polish should work as well. DO NOT use supposed leather rejuvinator. I just about ruined a flight helmet using the stuff..... The bayonet was made for the Lee Enfield Mk 1 SMLE III. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 The letters RE under the release stud( the side opposite the button) means that it was issued to the Royal Engineers. If you post all the marks on the bayonet we will tel you what they mean. regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 The letters RE under the release stud( the side opposite the button) means that it was issued to the Royal Engineers. If you post all the marks on the bayonet we will tel you what they mean. regards. Tom. Ok, thanks Tom here is the first one, I hope I have made it the correct size to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 And the second one. This was going to be the other side of the blade but that file is too big, so this one instead. It looks like H C on the lip of the scabbard but not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Third one, the other side of the blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Tom, the letters RE are on the top metal part of the scabard between the frog button and the staple that holds it onto the leather, not on the handle of the bayonet, which is where I think you thought I meant, it is a very light stamping and I dont know if you will be able to see it on this photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 There are no markings under the release stud on either side but there is a hole of about 5 mm diameter that goes all the way through the metal at the top of the handle, I have no idea what this was for. Thanks again, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Tom, the letters RE are on the top metal part of the scabard between the frog button and the staple that holds it onto the leather, not on the handle of the bayonet, which is where I think you thought I meant, it is a very light stamping and I dont know if you will be able to see it on this photograph. In this case, the RE means the scabbard was made by Remington in America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 There are no markings under the release stud on either side but there is a hole of about 5 mm diameter that goes all the way through the metal at the top of the handle, I have no idea what this was for. Thanks again, Ian And the hole is to allow water to drain out of the slot where it would normally be fixed onto a rifle - often called an oil-hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 There are no markings under the release stud on either side but there is a hole of about 5 mm diameter that goes all the way through the metal at the top of the handle, I have no idea what this was for. Thanks again, Ian Yes, "RE" indicates the scabbard was made in the United States by Remington. What you have there is what appears to be an intact unrefurbished 1916 or 1918 (can't tell from photos that size) Pattern 1907 bayonet ... the hole in the pommel (that's the bit at the end of the handle with the release catch) is a "clearance hole", which allows debris which accumulates in the slot to be pushed out by the lug when it's attached to the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 be careful with matching your bayonet to a rifle, the fittings for the british SMLE are different the hole the barrel goes thru is about 1.8cm, the ones for the american rifles are about 1.5cm diameter. I discovered this the semi hard way by buing a bayonet that didnt fit my SMLE. gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 This is all great information on this item and gives it more of a story to tell. Thanks to you all. I have given it a wipe over with a damp cloth and it looks so much better, I am very pleased with it for the price I paid. Welshdoc, I will try my best to get the correct rifle to fit it onto although it may take a while to get the spare cash and then of course I have to find one for sale. The hole appears to measure 1.7 cm so I assume this is the British version as it is closer to 1.8cm than 1.5cm. Andrew Upton and Heatseeker The date is ' 16 so it could have been used in service. If the scabbard was made by Remington in the USA and the Bayonet was made by Sanderson in the UK is this normal for them to be together or is one of them a replacement for a lost / broken item? The clearance hole appears obvious now that I know what it is. I think most of my questions have been answered apart from the letters on the lip of the scabbard, they look like HC but I suppose they could read HG, MC, MG, AC, AG, RC, RG or something similiar. Hopefully this will be the initials of the regiment that it was issued to. Anyone got any ideas? Finally, when did the 1907 pattern Bayonet get withdrawn from service by the British Army? Thanks again You have all been a great help Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 have a lok at this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;hl=wilkinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 I am delighted to see so many guys on the forum willing and able to decipher the markings. Its markings like the ones on your bayonet that can tell you so much more. You will notice there are three crowns on one side and under them is a number and the letter E. This means it passed three tests and the number is the inspectors number and the letter E says it was inspected/tested in Enfield. The large X is the side of the blade that underwent a bending test. If you give us all the numbers on the bayonet you will see when it was first issued, This is the only time a month number will be beside the year, the rest will be years of re-issue, if you get my meaning....i.e 39 (1939) 18 (1918) etc., I cannot see the numbers in the pictures you posted. You will be happy to find that your bayonet scabbard has the correct 'teardrop' shaped stud for the ww1 period. regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Ok Tom, if you think you can tell me more from the numbers, here they are. Reading down from the blade towards the handle we have a crown over GR over 1907 over 10 '16 over sanderson. On the other side of the blade we have a small arrow over a crown over 6E over E. Then on the left a crown over 3Y over F. In the middle is the X for the bending test. On the right is the same as on the left. It would be excellent if I could find out what regiment it was issued to. cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 3y and 6E are the inspectors numbers there should be antoner one. The 10 '16 shows it was first issued in October 1916. If there are no letters stamped on the side opposite the button release stud you will not know who it was issued to. GR is Georgivus rex or however you spell it for King George. 1907 is the pattern of bayonet it is. Regards. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 Thanks Tom, As I said, it has 3y twice and there is nothing opposite side to the button so I suppose it will remain a mystery. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 11 October , 2006 Share Posted 11 October , 2006 3y under a crown with an E under it also? Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macthomas Posted 11 October , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2006 3y under a crown with an E under it also? Tom. No Tom both of the inspection marks closest to the handle are a crown over 3Y over F . The mark furthest from the handle is a crown over 6E over E. sorry if I am not explaining it clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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