alliekiwi Posted 16 July , 2006 Share Posted 16 July , 2006 I'm trying to find out about my Great great uncle, Alexander Mackenzie, who served in the NZEF, on Gallipoli and also in France. Aleck returned from the war, although he'd been injured seven times, so I'm not able to find any information from the CWGC. From his uniform, I *think* he was in the NZ Rifle Brigade, possibly Wellington. However, there are several Alexander Mackenzies and I don't know which one he is. He was in the Main Body - or, at least, I assume he was, considering this photo of him, taken in Cairo, dates from April 10, 1915. His brother, Jock (seated) was definitely a Main Body man, but was in the Auckland Infantry. As an aside, does anyone know how the service numbers worked, how/when they were allocated? I know that that earlier enlistments had a numeral/othernumeral style. E.g. Uncle Jock was service number 12/160. The 12 stood for Auckland Infantry. But does the 160 mean he was the 160th man to enlist in the Auckland Infantry? Were they given the number the first day, or after basic training, in which case he was the 160th person to be allocated a number after basic training was completed, and perhaps he was number 160 in alphabetical order on the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 16 July , 2006 Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Hi Allie, Having done a search online at Archives New Zealand there are three Alexander Mackenzies who served in the NZEF. The three are. Military personnel files MACKENZIE, Alexander - WW1 64314 - Army >> 1914 1918 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives O Wgtn MACKENZIE, Alexander - WW1 82127 - Army >> 1914 1919 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives O Wgtn MACKENZIE, Alexander Fraser - [a.k.a. McKENZIE] - WW1 25/790 - Army >> 1914 1918 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives (Note there are another 5 Mackenzies listed with the christian name Alexander, however the Alexander are middle names, so presuming you have his name correct that eliminates them). So, of the three above, the only one who could have being in the main body is the third one, Alexander Fraser Mackenzie service number 25/790. If you want to order his service record you can using the reference given below. This can be ordered from Archives New Zealand. Please quote this information to request this record MACKENZIE, Alexander Fraser - [a.k.a. McKENZIE] - WW1 25/790 - Army 1914 - 1918 agency series accession box / item record part alternative no. AABK 18805 W5544 42 0070675 With regards the service numbers. For the main body and the first 10 reinforcements to the NZEF, the service numbers had the "Bar" format. EG 12/ was for the Auckland infantry 8/ was Otago infantry and 10/ was Wellington Infantry etc. the 25/ was for the 3rd battalion of the NZ Rifle brigade. So Alexander MacKenzie 25/790 was in the 3rd battalion of the NZ rifle Brigade at the beginning of the war. He may have transferred to other Battalions later in the war, and his service record would state that. Now, the number sequence for service numbers, to begin with each unit run its own system. It was on a first serve first in basis, the earlier you joined up, the lower your number would be. The number 25/790 is most definetly a main body man. After the 10th reinforcements A very strict regimental service numbering system was adopted and the unit "BAR" format was dropped. The numbers were administered centrally for the whole country, hence the other two Mackenzies above could not have being main body as there service number do not have the bar format. Trust thats hopeful. cheers Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 16 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Thanks, Aaron. I wish there was a nice list somewhere of all the troops who joined up, like there is the 'NZEF roll of honour' for those who died. Because it would make things so much simpler to be able to work out who was who! I'm guessing Alexander Fraser must be my man, although none of the rest of the family has middle names, so having that 'Fraser' is a trifle odd. Do you think I'm correct in guesing that that uniform is a NZ Rifles one? Because that certainly puts Alexander Fraser as the Main Suspect, although... from the other type of service number I can't tell what units they were in. Would someone in the post-10th reinforcements have made it to Gallipoli for the landing? GAH, and the NZ archives are now charging for every War Service record - no more one or two freebies per annum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 16 July , 2006 Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Allie, Only the first 6 reinforcements served on Gallipoli, the 7th reinforcements arrived in Egypt (Suez) on the 18th November 1915. By then preparations were well underway for the evacuation of the Gallipoli Pennisula. So the 7th reinforcements simply stayed in Egypt and waited for the NZers to be evacuated and joined them. The other two Alexander Mac kenzies I mention most definantely did not serve at Gallipoli. 25/790 is the one you need to order. I did not reliase that Archives NZ no longer allow one or two requests free per year......that didnt take them long, they have barely recieved all the WW1 records............good ole government departments eh !!! Unfortuneatly I am not a uniforms expert, so I cant comment on his uniform in the picture. I tried to magnify his collar/hat badge however was unable too, unlike his brother which is very clear. cheers Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 16 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Well, unless I'm reading the website wrong, they're certainly charging. To find out if we have a record for the person you are researching, you can do a simple search on our online finding aid, Archway. Alternatively you can ask us to do a search for you. To access the records, please either: Submit an online request, email: reference@archives.govt.nz or write to Access Services, Archives New Zealand, PO Box 12 050, Wellington. Please note that all records accessed this way will be subject to a charge of $25 per item for research and photocopying, which must be pre-paid. For more details (including methods of payment) please go to Remote Reference It doesn't cost anything to look if you're in Wellngton, but there is a blanket fee for everyone else: New Zealand Defence Force personnel record: $25 per record I wish I'd got Aleck's record at the sametime I got Jock's - back in May! I wonder if it's worth writing and complaining about the blanket charge? As for Aleck's hat: if you tilt your head to the left, and poke your tongue out to the right, it helps with vision problems Then it is vaguely maybe possible to think that it could tentatively be the Wellington Rifle Brigade emblem. Actually, the only reason I thought he might be in the rifle brigade at all is from the shape of that very iffy rendering of an emblem - I looked up NZ hat badges on digger history and thought maybe it was the correct shape. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 16 July , 2006 Share Posted 16 July , 2006 There is a list of all the men who went overseas and were in the reserves; and the Alexander MacKenzies on it are; 1)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address 70 Russell St Occupation Sailor Recruiting District Dunedin 2)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address Wolseley Avondale Eden Occupation Pig-farmer Recruiting District Auckland 3)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address The Hill Manurewa Occupation Gardener Recruiting District Auckland 4)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address Walter Peak Queenstown Occupation Sheep-Farmer Recruiting District Southland 5)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address Green Hills Occupation Freezing-Works Hand Recruiting District Southland 6)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category First Reserves Last NZ Address C/- Mrs McDonald Sumner Rd Lyttelton Occupation Seaman Recruiting District Christchurch 7)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3 Regimental Number 64314 Rank Private Next of Kin Title Mrs F Next of Kin Surname MACKENZIE Next of Kin Relationship Wife Next of Kin Address Post-office Manurewa Roll 75 Page 38 Occupation Gardener 8)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4 Regimental Number 82127 Rank Private Next of Kin Title Mrs H Next of Kin Surname MACKENZIE Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Culverden Amuri North Canterbury Roll 90 Page 14 Occupation Carpenter 9)Surname MACKENZIE Given Name Alexander Category Second Reserves Last NZ Address P O Box 21 Otaki Railway Occupation Farmer Classification E This is from the WW1 CD from the NZ Society of Genealogists. Where did he live? Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 16 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2006 Thanks, Christine. Somewhere near Dannevirke, I thought! And he was born about 1888, so he would have been 26 in 1914... Strewth - he doesn't look like any of those. (One the one hand I'm rather glad I started with Uncle Jock as there is information aplenty on him, and this would have probably put me off the whole search. But on the other hand, information abounding on Jock has spoilt me!) Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 While the chap on the right is certainly the Auckland Regiment, the chap on the left looks to be wearing the reinforcement badge of the NZRB. He is also wearing black buttons which is also a bit of a giveaway as perhaps being part of the Rifle Bde. Neither chaps are wearing Bde/Bn flashes so perhaps the picture was taken quite early on in France? If he was the Rifle Bde, there is also a chance he may have served in the Senussi Campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 While the chap on the right is certainly the Auckland Regiment, the chap on the left looks to be wearing the reinforcement badge of the NZRB. He is also wearing black buttons which is also a bit of a giveaway as perhaps being part of the Rifle Bde. Neither chaps appear to be wearing Bde/Bn flashes. If he was the Rifle Bde, there is also a chance he may have served in the Senussi Campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Thanks, Dave. It was taken quite early on, but in Cairo. (April 10, 1915). I'll have to go look up this Senussi Campaign, now! I must say, it's far more difficult to research someone who survived the war than someone who died. Which, in a way, is quite sad. As if those who died are somehow 'worth' more. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 Christine, It might be an idea to do a search on your CD for Alexander Mckenzie (minus the A) as the information I took was from Archives NZ and they def have a service record for Alexander Mackenzie 25/790. I note that according to Archives NZ he was also aka as Mckenzie. Given your list above thier were only two given service numbers, the rest were in the reserves. Allie, any other info, eg a middle name would help. cheers Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 17 July , 2006 Share Posted 17 July , 2006 This is the entry for your uncle Jock Surname MACKENZIE Given Name John Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 12/160 Rank Private Body or Draft Main Body Unit or Regiment Auckland Infantry Batln Marital Status S Last NZ Address Auckland Next of Kin Title Alexander Next of Kin Surname MACKENZIE Next of Kin Address Mangatera Hawkes Bay You need to find an Alexander with the same nok. Or is this Alexander -the nok- your Uncle Alexander? Who were their parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 17 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2006 The problem with the blimmin Scots is that they named the children the same names as themselves. In my family the same four names are recycled over and over: Alexander, William, John (Jock), and James - with Duncan thrown in every now and again just for variety. Jock and Aleck (who had an elder brother James, and younger ones William and Duncan) were the sons of Alexander, who in turn was the son of James, who was the son of Alexander, who was the son of James... and one gets a right headache trying to keep them straight. (and we won't get into the Barabaras and Catherines they married whose maiden names were Mackenzie/McKenzie/MacKenzie, too, just to make my life interesting!) So, yes, the Alexander mentioned as next of kin on Jock's form is his Dad, not his brother of the same name. Alexander the elder was married to Catherine. There is a third brother - Duncan - who went to war as well, but he arrived later, in France. Re: the next of kind address... Uncle Jock's CWG entry lists them as being from Ross-shire, Scotland. Which they were, originally - but they'd been in NZ since 1901. Thank you so much for your help. All I know about middle names is that neither Jock nor his brother James had one. So it seems odd that their brother would - unles it was to somehow differentiate him from the father of the same name. Whilst I found a number of mentions online about Jock, I've found not a skerrick about Aleck. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 There are 81 Alexander and Alexander something McKenzies on the disc, but this one looks promising Surname MCKENZIE Given Name Alexander Fraser Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 11/798 Rank Trooper Body or Draft Second Unit or Regiment Wellington Mounted Rifles Marital Status S Last NZ Address Waiouru Next of Kin Title A Next of Kin Surname MCKENZIE Next of Kin Relationship Father Next of Kin Address Birkley Farm Mangatera Hawkes Bay and Surname MCKENZIE Given Name Alexander Fraser Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2 Regimental Number 11/798 Rank Trooper Next of Kin Title A Next of Kin Surname MCKENZIE Next of Kin Relationship Father Next of Kin Address Mangatira Dannevirke Comment Ex 2nd Reinforcements Roll 28 Page 2 Occupation Farmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 and this could be Duncan Surname MCKENZIE Given Name Duncan Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3 Regimental Number 43101 Rank Lance-Corpl Next of Kin Title A Next of Kin Surname MCKENZIE Next of Kin Relationship Father Next of Kin Address Brenchley Mangatara Roll 64 Page 3 Occupation Shepherd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Allie, Did a search at Archives NZ for Duncan Mackenzie. This was the response. Military personnel files MACKENZIE, Charles Duncan - WW1 3/1811 - Army >> 1914 1916 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives O Wgtn MACKENZIE, Duncan - WW1 N/N - Army >> 1914 1918 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives O Wgtn MACKENZIE, Duncan Neil - WW1 38204 - Army >> 1914 1918 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives M Wgtn MACKENZIE, Norman Duncan - WW1 34986 - Army >> 1914 1918 New Zealand Defence Force, Personnel Archives Once again, assuming you have the name right we can immediately eliminate number 1 and 4, as the Duncan is a middle name not christian name. So now its down to 2 or 3, out of those two it may be the second one if you believe your Duncan Mackenzie did not have a middle name. I dont know what N/N stands for, thats something you will have to have to ask Archives NZ. (maybe No Number) instead of a service number. I have never seen a file for a NZ serviceman with no regimental number. If you want to order either of the Duncan Mackenzies service records here are the references ou need to give them. Please quote this information to request this record title years MACKENZIE, Duncan - WW1 N/N - Army 1914 - 1918 agency series accession box / item record part alternative no. AABK 18805 W5544 42 0070697 and for the third one. Please quote this information to request this record title years MACKENZIE, Duncan Neil - WW1 38204 - Army 1914 - 1918 agency series accession box / item record part alternative no. AABK 18805 W5544 42 0070698 Best regards Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Alexander Fraser MacKenzie married Iris Kathleen Elizabeth Ross in 1923 Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Aaron, the WW1 N/N files are those of men who were in the Army but never went overseas, so they officially are not part of the NZEF, but of the NZ Army. Most of them were office staff, military camp staff, or involved in training the expeditionary force before they left. You can also search Archway using WW ONE N/N - the word "one" not the number, and you get a few more names. Allie, Not only do they have a limited supply of first names, but they seem to alternate between the 2 spellings of the surname Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Allie, And here is the result when I did a search for Duncan McKenzie, minus the "A" Only one Duncan McKenzie came up. Please quote this information to request this record title years McKENZIE, Duncan - WW1 55523 - Army 1914 - 1918 agency series accession box / item record part alternative no. AABK 18805 W5544 81 0074526 Archives NZ do not hold a service record for Duncan Mckenzie with service number 43101, or atleast thier serach engine did not find it on name search. Allie, I thnk your biggest challange with these brothers is actualy establishing what speling of thier surname they served/signed up under. cheers Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 18 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Arg, just lost my post when the cat landed on the keyboard! Okay, Uncle Aleck was married to an Iris, so that means he did have a middle name, and he must be Alexander Fraser. But do we have two separate Alexander Fraser Mackenzie/McKenzie's here? Because one of them is: Alexander Fraser McKenzie 11/798 Wellington Mounted Rifles Comment Ex 2nd Reinforcements whilst the other is MACKENZIE, Alexander Fraser[a.k.a. McKENZIE] 25/790 And '25' stands for the 3rd NZ Rifle Brigade Maybe he swapped from one to the other and got a new number? You two deserve medals. That CD of yours sounds brilliant, Christine - where does one acquire one of them? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 From the NZSG, 93 Queens Rd, Panmure Auckland http://www.genealogy.org.nz/sales/cdrom_WW1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 18 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Allie, Not only do they have a limited supply of first names, but they seem to alternate between the 2 spellings of the surname Christine Allie, I thnk your biggest challange with these brothers is actualy establishing what speling of thier surname they served/signed up under. cheers Aaron. You said it, brother (and sister). I think they alternated on a whim, depending on which way the wind was blowing. I think I'd far rather be researching someone with a nice long Polish surname full of random c's and z's than the scottish. Even if men do look good in kilts. So, squinting at the hat badge up there, is it this one: Wellington Mounted Rifles Or this one of the NZ Rifles on here: NZ Infantry badges Also, the Mounted Rifles uniforms and Rifle Brigade uniforms look really similar, but I did notice that the Mounted Rifles seemed to have shiny buttons and Dave said: the chap on the left looks to be wearing the reinforcement badge of the NZRB. He is also wearing black buttons which is also a bit of a giveaway as perhaps being part of the Rifle Bde. *head-desk* Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Allie, Dont despair. ...we are almost thier !!! A couple of points re establishing which Alexander Fraser Mac/Mckenzie is your relative. Christine advised you about Iris, but, was she talking about the one she found eg 11/798 or my one 25/790. I suggest messaging Christine too see if she can clarify that, simply use the PM button to private message. I doubt that both of them married a girl called Iris, so that would settle it that way. Although my wife and her sister both married Aarons....so you never know!!!! Secondly, Archives NZ does not bring up the 11/798 soldier, which is a little strange, but it may be just having a bad day. I doubt very much that this is the same man with a changed regimental number, generally servicemen kept thier same service number even if they changed units. Thirdly, I hate to say it, but I do beleive the Mounted battalions wore the leather ammunition belts slung across the soldier as your man in the photograph is showing. Having said that we really do need an NZ uniforms expert to step in here.......anyone..... We WILL get to the bottom of this for you. cheers Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Nelson Posted 18 July , 2006 Share Posted 18 July , 2006 Alexander Fraser MacKenzie married Iris Kathleen Elizabeth Ross in 1923 Christine Allie, Having reread Christine's entry above she does state Mackenzie, so that would point to soldier 25/790..... I reckon that proves it. cheers Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 18 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2006 You're good for my sanity, Aaron! I've just been looking at soldiers photos online in the Auckland library heritage collection, and there none of the New Zealand Rifle Brigade ones are wearing those pouchy things. So I think you're right. New Zealand Rifle Brigade Uniform New Zealand Mounted Rifles Uniform But if he's with the Mounted Rifles, that's the Alexander Fraser whose records aren't listed at Archives New Zealand. Allie Edit ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! But here's one of the Auckland Infantry. Complete with little pouches!! The end of my sanity. I think we'll have to assume this picture has been mis-labelled. Also, this is not Uncle Aleck: Alexander McKenzie Reg No 24037, of the Auckland Infantry Battalion And neither is this: Alexander McKenzie Reg No 40606, of the Auckland Infantry Regiment (not that we thought he was from Auckland, but it's nice to put a face to the name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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