Customs impounding relics?

[KIRKY]

Heard from a guy who has just come back from Somme area. He visited Delville Wood and asked why they only had 1 fuse head for sale. He was told that Customs are now searching most cars who visit the Somme area and are impounding fuse heads as they "were once part of an explosive device".

Anyone heard about this? Fuse heads have always looked great to me and although I probably have enough now ( according to my wife) what other items will they impound in future? I know strictly speaking we should not pick up anything but what about bullet heads, shrapnel balls, driving bands etc?

Any comments on this bit of news?

Tony

[Paul Johnson]

Tony,

I have not witnessed this but there has been some discussion on the Forum about it.

Although, in the current climate, it is understandable that Customs Officials should not want travellers to be bringing any kind of explosive device, or part of, into the UK, I have to admit to being at a bit of a loss.

Yesterday, I was at the War & Peace show in the pleasant confines of the Kent countryside. The event boasts "at least 1000" traders. Most of these had military hardware for sale and a great many of them were Dutch, Belgian, French or German!

This then begs the question, Where's the common sense? You cant bring a single 90 year-old fuse head into the country but it's OK to bring a truck load (or van) of hardware including de-activated weapons.

Whilst I would not want to spoil anyones trip to the Somme nor put any militaria dealers out of business, why don't we just say NOto the whole lot?

It's a crazy world!!!

Regards

PAUL J

[BRIAN TALMER]

We visited Ypres the weekend after the first bombings and brought back an 181b British shell with no problems. There were no searches nor questions asked, just a quick glance at the passports.

Brian & Lesley

[Guest]

Does anyone know if there are special arrangements for dealers? And what processes are followed in Belgium, France, etc. to ensure that battelfield debris is safe before it goes on sale or is removed from the battlefield?

I think the problem is that very few people who scavenge the battlefields and very few customs officers are truly qualified to pronounce items which previously formed part of explosive ordnance safe and free from explosive.

As someone who worked as a professional in the field of ammunitionand explosives in the 1960s and 1970s, members of Joe Public's Brigade handling items of ordnance terrify me and make me want to dig out my old running shoes.

I think we are better off without that stuff, except in museums, for debris of stuff designed to kill is what it is.

[Terry_Reeves]

There is no such thing as a "fuse head". A fuse is a fuse, and contains an explosive component one way or another. Over the past few years, "battlefield finds", including grenades, have appeared on the market in this country. Personally, I think anybody bringing into the country any finds such as this should be prosecuted, and this includes those with so-called empty shell.

Sorry if this seems a bit over the top, but there are too many "experts" about nowadays whose sole knowledge comes from books. Leave well enough alone. Munitions were designed to kill, and still do so.

Terry Reeves

[the gunners dream]

I totally agree with Terry. Leave well alone. Just because it's decades old doesn't mean it's not live anymore!

A fuse is a detonator and at the very least we are talking abouut losing fingers etc if one goes off. Detonators and fuses can actually go off through contact with warm skin.

And if you want the legal jargon for it, it's a prohibited weapon under Section 5(1) of the Firearms Act 1968.

[Max Poilu]

A fuse is a fuse, and contains an explosive component one way or another. Over the past few years, "battlefield finds", including grenades, have appeared on the market in this country. Personally, I think anybody bringing into the country any finds such as this should be prosecuted, and this includes those with so-called empty shell.

A fuse is a detonator and at the very least we are talking about losing fingers etc if one goes off. Detonators and fuses can actually go off through contact with warm skin.

Firstly, sorry, but this is totally incorrect information. A fuze is not a detonator (the two items are totally different), nor does a fuze always contain an explosive element.

For much previous discussion simply type 'relic' into the search.

The law as it stands is terribly ambiguous and open to interpretation. There has been ongoing and informed debate in The Armourer magazine (the UK militaria collectors prime magazine) over the past few issue including some interesting and sensible advice off the record from UK port customs authorities.

We need to differentiate between used/inert/fired items and live items. Anything live must be left well alone and that is that.

In lay man's terms one chunk of inert brass is another man's piece of a 'bomb'. As long as the law and the interpretation of it are unclear you bring these things back at your own risk. Needless to say if you cannot be 100% sure that what you bring back is 100% inert and legal then leave well alone. If you are not expert enough to know then again, leave well alone.

In the current climate you will be in trouble if you get it wrong.

There have been many horror stories involving heavy handed and severe treatment by customs and police authorities mainly on the French side related in The Armourer and I have heard my own personal accounts from fellow collectors and dealers.

A Belgian dealer friend I spoke to this week at Beltring was entertained by HM customs. How does 7 hours and 19 officials from Special Branch downwards grab you? They pulled him apart completely.

To answer the license question, yes, special licenses exist for the import and export of inert ordinance etc.

My advice? Do not mention the 'Somme', 'war', battlefields', etc - there is no need. Just explain you are returning from your holiday in Pas-de-Calais or Picardy etc.

Regardless, I would also add that I would advise against bringing back anything inert regardless due to the current climate.

And the vast majority of shell fuzes to be found are time fuzes from shrapnel shells that once contained a black powder train. They are not dangerous. If they are inert and empty they are perfectly legal to own in the UK. Nothing to do with Section 5, they are simply pieces of inert brass.

And as for 'once part of an explosive device' - the vast majority of trench art was 'once part of an explosive device' if you take the argument to a silly level. Are some suggesting that the thousands of empty brass shell cases sitting by peoples fireplaces for instance should be banned.

As in all these things a little common sense and fairness needs to be employed. Something that that as many of us are all too aware is sadly lacking in current and proposed legislation.

[Rob Gray]

Well said Giles, absolutely sensible advice, lets hope most folk take heed.

Rob.

[Max]

Giles' advice is very sensible.

There is another issue however, and that is how are these relics acquired in the first place? There are very tough rules in France as regards digging and I would have thought that the French police would be quite within their rights to turn offenders over.

Andy

[Max Poilu]

Andy is right of course. Do not forget that technically even taking a shrapnel ball is illegal (as discussed to death on the forum before ).

If you are a Brit' then I am afraid to say you will not get preferential treatment - probably quite the opposite...

[Paul Johnson]

Personally, if I find anything of interest on the battlefields the only thing I "take" is a photograph.

I'm not a munitions expert, nor do I pretend to be one. Look and Leave Alone is my motto and it's worked for me so far. Never had a problem with Customs and still got all my Bits & Pieces in tact.

If you really want something for your collectors cabinet there are plenty of artifacts for sale from reputable dealers & collectors that I am sure will meet your needs.

If you play with fire, there is every chance you may get burnt!

Regards

PAUL J

[truthergw]

Heard from a guy who has just come back from Somme area. He visited Delville Wood and asked why they only had 1 fuse head for sale. He was told that Customs are now searching most cars who visit the Somme area and are impounding fuse heads as they "were once part of an explosive device".

Anyone heard about this?  Fuse heads have always looked great to me and although I probably have enough now ( according to my wife) what other items will they impound in future? I know strictly speaking we should not pick up anything but what about bullet heads, shrapnel balls, driving bands etc?

Any comments on this bit of news?

Tony

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the current climate, anyone carrying parts of bombs, shells or any other device must be living in a world of his own. I wouldn't advise doing it on the streets of any large city, never mind through customs. Our hobby and interests can be so interesting that it becomes almost an obsession, and that is part of the magic, but please remember that there is a real world out there where bombs and explosives are not interesting relics. They are real and present dangers.

[Guest]

Firstly, sorry, but this is totally incorrect information.  A fuze is not a detonator (the two items are totally different), nor does a fuze always contain an explosive element.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A fuze is not a detonator, but it does contain a detonator plus other explosives.

The detonator in a fuze is not as big as a detonator (blasting cap) used in demolitions, but it is powerful enough to do the job.

In hour one, day one of my training on the demolition ground, the instructor taped a detonator to the neck of a cartridge case and set it off. He then invited us to inspect the damage and consider what it would have done to a hand holding it.

Some time later, I saw a photograph of a hand which had been holding a detonator when it went off. It was amazing how completely some of the bones had been stripped of flesh.

This stuff kills. Leave it well alone.

[KIRKY]

Hi

from what has been said am I to understand that the brass fuze heads and German fuze heads are still live with explosives?

If so why are they sold in Museums etc for instance Delville wood, Albert and also on Ebay?

I have a collection of aprox 20, are they safe? most are battered and badly marked, some with rings missing? All are off the fields.

I would be very worried if they they were dangerous.

Please advise.

Tony

[Terry_Reeves]

I'm sorry, but a fuse does contain explosive components. Saying it does not is dangerously misleading, and only serves to endanger thoose who have little knowledge of such things. It also encourages complacency. I speak from a position of having many years of practical experience of dealing with explosives and explosive devices. Gunpowder is an explosive. The reason that so-called "burning time fuses" have vent holes in them is to prevent a build up of gasses in the fuse body which can be dangerous. There is no competent civilian body that can say a fuse is inert. If there was they would come with FFE (Free from Explosives) certificates. Only a couple of years ago a lecturer at Camberly was killed by a fuse that he brought back from the Western Desert. Don't assume anything about munitions, wherever they come from.

Terry Reeves

[Guest]

from what has been said am I to understand that the brass fuze heads and German fuze heads are still live with explosives?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless you have absolute confirmation from someone qualified to say it that yout item is free from explosive, assuming it is live is the best policy.

And always remember the old saying for dealing with unexploded ordnance.

Don't assume it is safe to move just because somebody moved it.

[Max Poilu]

It cannot be said any clearer than I and others have already said! Tony - read all the above posts again for a sense of balance but the most important bit:

I repeat:

Needless to say if you cannot be 100% sure that what you bring back is 100% inert and legal then leave well alone. If you are not expert enough to know then again, leave well alone.

[the gunners dream]

On the law front? I can't speak for French law other than I believe it is illegal to remove anything from a farmer's field?

On the English law side?

I am a police officer by profession. You bring back anything like that into the UK and are caught you stand a good chance of getting arrested/reported.

The definition stands as this for prohibited weapons:

'...any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing mentioned above and, if capable of being used with a firearm or any such description, any grenade, bomb or shell (or other like missile), or rocket to explode on or immediately before impact.'

A firearm, just so we are clear on this is:

'Any lethal barrelled weapon.'

Ammunition is:

'ammunition for any firearm and includes grenades bombs and other like missiles, whether capable of use with a firearm or not, and also includes prohibited ammunition.'

Fuse caps, detonators all come within this as it is considered to be designed to be used with a firearm and ammunition. Ultimately they can be classed as a component part or an accessory.

A good example of this is if you were caught with a sniper's scope but no rifle you could still get arrested because you are in possession of something which in essence is designed to be used with a firearm. A fuse has the same abilty.

There is no exemption from this other than this one.

'Possession, purchase or aquisition for activities recognised by another by another member state as a collector of firearms, or a body concerned in the cultural or historical aspects of weapons.'

But someone collecting this sort of stuff off a battlefield will not fall into this remit. And you would have to prove that it's inert or illegal if caught. So you would still be coming into a police staion if caught with it.So count yourselves lucky if you are only given a ticking off and have the stuff confiscated by customs.

I could go on further with this act, but I hope that what is here is enough to let you know that this is illegal. If you want to know more then just say.

By the way, I am not going to be coming round your houses in the near future and I'm only trying to get through to you all that you can get in the brown smelly stuff if you are caught with these items.

[Max Poilu]

I could go on further with this act, but I hope that what is here is enough to let you know that this is illegal.

I am not sure when you use the word 'this' (that this is illegal), to what you are referring?

Again you say:

By the way, I am not going to be coming round your houses in the near future and I'm only trying to get through to you all that you can get in the brown smelly stuff if you are caught with these items. 

What do you mean by 'these' items?

There is some major confusion here. Please can we be absolutely sure of the difference between live firearms/ordinance and de-activated firearms and inert ordinance.

Sorry, but it is certainly not illegal to own an inert shell fuze or many other former components of ordinance. We need to be crystal clear about the difference between an inert/empty/used/de-activated grenade/fuze/shell/firearm round/shell case etc and a live one.

To own the former is perfectly legal, to own the latter is not. There is a world of difference. It is exactly the same as de-activated firearms vs working firearms. One is a collectors object (and not technically classed as a firearm) the other is a firearm.

Take a look at the Beltring topic for the sort of items legally on sale and legally owned by thousands of people in this country. Anyone of us could go there today and buy endless inert shells/mortars/rounds/bullets/grenades/flares/fuzes or a lorry load of de-activated rifles/MGs/mortars/pistols/SMGs etc even a Sherman tank and we would not be breaking a single law. There were many police there and hundreds of dealers dealing in all the above. Please see the gentleman from Belgium referred to in my first post. Nineteen officers in seven hours pulled his huge amount of inert goods to pieces and he was free to proceed about his legal business.

Inert is one thing live is another.

[Terry_Reeves]

Giles

Could I ask what experience you have in terms of explosives and muntions?

Terry Reeves

[truthergw]

Sorry, but it is certainly not illegal to own an inert shell fuze or many other former components of ordinance. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am EXTREMELY unwilling to disagree with you. I generally accept your posts as the definitive answer. I think you are missing the point. At the present time, any official, police, customs, emigration or whatever is going to react very badly to any hint that a person coming into the country is carrying what might be an explosive device. These are not normal circumstances and the finer points of law are not going to be observed .

[Max Poilu]

I think we are in agreement!

I think you are missing the point. At the present time, any official, police, customs, emigration or whatever is going to react very badly to any hint that a person coming into the country is carrying what might be an explosive device. These are not normal circumstances and the finer points of law are not going to be observed .

I could not agree more. As I said above I would advise against bringing back anything even inert and legal never mind anything suspect which would be truly idiotic.

All I was trying to get across was the world of difference in legal terms in this country between owning live and inert pieces.

Terry,

I have PM'd you on this matter.

[KIRKY]

Thanks for all advice, but I am still confused as must be others?

I have picked up fuse heads which have been fired and "gone Off" , are you guys saying that it is still dangerous?

I once had a Graze No 1 which I found had the detonator attached and this was taken to a local Police Station who kindly disposed of it and I learned a lesson form that!

But I was always told and thought that brass timer fuze heads were safe.

I know we should not remove anything we think is live and I never would but a brass fuze head?

Tony

[Max]

I know we should not remove anything we think is live and I never would but a brass fuze head?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tony

Disregarding the dangers involved, according to local law you shouldn't be picking anything up at all.

Andy

[Guest]

But I was always told and thought that brass timer fuze heads were safe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where were you trained and who by? It is not enough to be "told". You need the degree of expert, professional knowledge necessary to examine the item and decide this for yourself beyond any doubt in each case.