More Somme Relics

[Paul Reed]

I see some more relics from the Somme are on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...6526649585&rd=1

Click on 'Sellers Other Items' as well.

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi Paul,

It seems to be never ending at the moment. Looking at all his items, it leaves no doubt as to how he came across them !!

I just wish this could be stopped !!

Cheers

Tim.

[Rob Gray]

It would appear that this guy is a local Frenchman, a resident of Albert..??

Most of the bits and pieces would be well known to anybody that has ever walked the ploughed fields of the Somme area, although the larger items, helmets & bayonets were presumably unearthed with the aid of a metal detector.

I would be surprised if these rusty relics are of any great value - they can all be bought locally in the area quite cheaply - people tend to pay well over the going rate for a lot of stuff on e-bay, so it will be interesting to see what these items go for.

Rob.

[Paul Reed]

It's the dog tags and grave marker plate that causes alarm, at least, to me. While tags are found, to have more than one is unusual; to have so many you have spares to sell is... well, suspicious. I am sure they were all found legit, but one does wonder at times with any relics on Ebay.

[Max Poilu]

It seems to be never ending at the moment. Looking at all his items, it leaves no doubt as to how he came across them

Tim,

Not sure what you mean? All of those items are easily found on the surface. Are you sure he dug for them? There is no mention of them being found in Thiepval Wood or similar - perhaps he is a farmer? Out of all his 20 odd lots all is anonymous equipment except for one lot of tags and the compass. The provenance with the compass is going to create lively debate I am sure. The German grave marker is I believe, one of various types of these removed as graves were consolidated many years ago. People have been trading in this stuff ever since the War ended. As Paul will know and agree I am sure, box fulls of similar rusty relics can be bought at any French bourse or many of the well known museums. There are endless private collections in France packed full of personal relics, most discovered decades ago and traded between private collectors - it is not all new finds suddenly appearing on eBay.

This argument goes back and forth and the subject of relics has been discussed here endlessly - although the French law is in place that states these things cannot be picked up/dug/sold it goes on quite openly in France.

I think the problem is specifically with the ID tags and compass, it is obviously a sensitive issue and more so as time goes on. Of course it is a different story if the tags etc were found on the surface alone or actually 'detected' for and any remains ignored.

The 'metal-detecting in France' thread that went into many pages offered many views, it is illegal and any detecting or digging is IMO totally wrong but the battlefield walker picking up the odd bullet case, shrapnel ball or piece of spade or gasmask lying on the surface is really not a criminal in my view.

If an item with a possible personal link is found sitting on the surface (as anything can be) what do you do? Call in an archeological team every time? There are various stories from many years ago of farmers 'ignoring' remains and getting on with their livelyhood as they had to but views change and such an attitude nowadays would not be acceptable for sure (if it ever was).

BTW, I am not speaking up for this seller in particular, I am just stirring the debate, whether the law is ignored or not by many of those who enforce it, the fact remains that technically picking up even a shrapnel ball is illegal. Of course in many cases, in Verdun for instance the book is thrown at people.

The former 'whistle' thread was slightly different in that the seller was (in many Pals views, mine included) allegedly not being totally upfront in what was found with the items (difficult to say this without being moderated) or he was perhaps rather economical with the truth in the link between the two pieces...

[CROONAERT]

It's the dog tags and grave marker plate that causes alarm, at least, to me. While tags are found, to have more than one is unusual; to have so many you have spares to sell is... well, suspicious.

A thing that makes me wonder, is - have they been "found" at all? None of those tags for sale are listed on SDGW for starters and being the "cheaper" version of the private purchase tag, some don't weather the years all that well even if they've never been underground! I've got some in worse condition than them, and they've only ever sat in an attic or wherever!!! Stick a bit of dried mud on them and - hey presto- a "dug -up" relic from the Somme", which will sell a damn sight better than just a "knackered dog-tag".

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

although the larger items, helmets & bayonets were presumably unearthed with the aid of a metal detector.

Not necessarily, Rob. I've got quite a display in my attic which includes relic rifles, bayonets, helmets of all nations, Lewis mags, waterbottles,mess tins, etc, etc. that I collected in the 1980's from Ypres, the Somme, Arras and Verdun. None of these were found using a metal detector (I tried it once, when I was a kid - gave it up as a bad job as it was going off almost continuously for every shell shard, etc.), nor did I ever actually "dig" for anything. Everything was found on the surface (well, technically, they'd have been just below the surface if it wasn't for the workmen) at road buildings and widenings, forest clearances, fallen trees, foundation diggings, etc.

Dave.

[RichardH]

It's the dog tags and grave marker plate that causes alarm, at least, to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agree- then again the souvenir plates take some beating...

[museumtom]

I just thought I would ad that I checked SDGW for these guys and they were not in it......hhhhmm

Tom

[BeppoSapone]

Take a look at ebay for quite large numbers of German WW2 "dug" identity tags.

Assuming that these tags are not faked I would not like to put money on any remains that they were found with them being reported to the authorities.

[Paul Reed]

I would agree with Giles that we don't need to be too draconian in respect of battlefield relics, and there is indeed a difference between finding items on the surface and digging for them, or using a detector. However, individuals can do damage by walking a site that has just been searched by archaeologists - and removing what they fancy. I have seen evidence of that both on the Somme and in Flanders. I know Giles and others here would never do that, but we all must recognise that there are those who might.

However, the type of material here can, of course, be found on the surface - but it is much more likely that it is dug. Many British, French and Dutch collectors (and no doubt others) are actively using forums like this, along with books, maps, websites etc to trace the location of medical establishments behind the lines, so that they can search for the rubbish pits: full of personal items, badges, insignia and bottles. Many of them keep and treasure these items: in some ways, of course, they are 'saving' them. However, others are motivated by profit: one only has to scan Ebay for half an hour to find such activity.

These relics may be 100% pukka and have been found many years ago; there are many, very old, private collections with items like this recovered decades ago when there was much more in the fields. We will never know for sure.

I just feel that this is a 'touchy' subject, and that the trading in relics obviosuly relating to individuals is something that will attract the attention of the 'popular press' at some point, and all collectors will be tarred with the same brush. It is also implies that all French collectors/enthusiasts are motivated by one thing; which those of us with any experience of them will know is not the case.

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Tim,

Not sure what you mean? All of those items are easily found on the surface. Are you sure he dug for them?

Hi Giles

What I mean is, this is straight after the whistle thread and several others, where personal items are being traded, I for one find it worrying.

As for you asking about whether I'm sure he dug for them, of course I'm not but it is possible particularly with such things as the compass and i'd tags !!

This whole subject worries me more and more as time goes on, as everytime I go to the battlefields I hear stories of questionable practices going on ( I'll say no more).

I have no problem with people who walk the battlefields and just come across ( a shrapnel ball, a bullet casing, a shell splinter etc) from keeping it as a keep sake, and if they're lucky enough maybe something bigger. It is the personal items of men who can be identified, that I have a problem with.

This is just my humble opinion.

Cheers

Tim.

[wellsms]

Tricky subject this one, I was 'delighted' to find some cases, shrapnel etc at the start of the month by just kicking around the leaf litter in Flatiron Copse.

That said I'd be very concerned about creating a large market for this stuff, because where there's a market unscrupulous people soon follow. They won't care about digging up any sort of relic if it has a price.

Seperately, at the same time I visited Delville Wood and at the far end from the entrance, where they've been clearing larger trees and replanting there were a couple of bones on the surface that were very obviously human. Now that made me feel very strange.

cheers

Mike

[Max Poilu]

Tim and Paul,

I think I agree with almost everything you say. As I say my problem with the whistle find was the location and the dubious honesty of the whole piece. In general I am not sure that relic trading is more manifest than it was in years gone by, as always ebay exposes this to the general public.

It's a tricky one and we all have different views. As an example, last time I was in France, 2 months ago and walking not a million miles from Paul's house I found, on the surface a piece of French clay pipe and a small penknife within 50 yards of each other. Both Great War period. What to do?:

1: Leave them there.

2: Report the find to the authorities as possible evidence of a body below.

3: Find the farmer who owns the land and give them to him.

4: Keep them, preserve them and the location and know they will never be lost but preserved for future generations.

Different people will have different views.

Regarding the 'popular press' there was of course that 'infamous' ITV programme and coverage in The Sun a couple of years ago that sensationally 'reported' the trading in 'grisly grave robbing' or suchlike.

Here is that long discussion on this subject from a while ago for anyone who missed it:

Metal Detectors on France

[Mark A]

Tim, Paul and Giles,

Some good points. In my heart, I can't really get worked up about bullet cases, barbed wire and shrapnel balls being taken from the battlefields. In my head though I know that even these "small" items have archaeological value:

"Fieldwalking, sometimes called 'surface collection', is a technique of investigation, primarily site location involving the collection of artifacts from the surface of ploughed fields. Traditionally an activity carried out by amateur archaeologists it has become much more systematic in recent years, collection within squares based on the national grid replacing more casual collection in which the location of finds was at best vaguely recorded.

The types of artefact most commonly to be found in these circumstances are naturally robust and resistant to destruction by ploughing. Worked flint and stone together with the more durable types of pottery, Roman, medieval and later, and building materials such as tile, brick or stone are the most common finds.

What should be remembered though is that even surface material from disturbed ploughsoil is part of the archaeological record of a site (or in some cases may be the only evidence for a particular type of activity). Consequently finds should only be removed when necessary for study and only then if collected on a systematic basis. All finds should be reported to the appropriate museum in order for them to be included in the local Sites and Monuments Record."

-From the BBC Website.

I post this not as some "holier than thou" person stirring the debate, but as someone who has picked up his fair share of relics (as a lad of 17 or 18!) field walking and brought them home with me. Although none of them are named (like that compass on e-bay), with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I'd left them there.

IMHO I think the best thing to do is to have a blanket response to all relics, leave things where you find them and/or take a photograph.

best,

Mark

[CROONAERT]

I see that the ID tags have now been removed from auction, the reason being that "the items are no longer on sale"!

Any ideas why?

Dave

[Chris Noble]

Just a funny feeling.

Do you think we are being "played" with here?

Regards, Chris.

[CROONAERT]

Just a funny feeling.

Do you think we are being "played" with here?

Regards, Chris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure what you mean, Chris. Maybe someone from this forum has emailed the vendor? If so, I wonder what was said.

Personally, I had no problem with this sale (and even had a bid on them myself). After all, they weren't "casualty" items, so there'd have been no " human remains " complications if they were dig-ups.

To me, all I saw was 4 British private purchase ID tags for sale. I've had, got, and handled hundreds of these items. Whether they were dug up or not, who knows? I had no reservations about bidding on them as they would have been welcome additions in my collection, so I feel a little "teased" by the vendor now the auction has been pulled (even though I'd been outbid). Is that what you meant? Or did you mean that he put the auction on deliberately to provoke a response from this forum? - Maybe, but I doubt it.

Dave.

[Max Poilu]

I think it is just the same old story of a deal arranged 'off' ebay. I see no reason why ebay will pull them or the seller was trying to wind anyone up - life's too short.

[CROONAERT]

I think it is just the same old story of a deal arranged 'off' ebay.  I see no reason why ebay will pull them or the seller was trying to wind anyone up - life's too short.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully agree Giles. I also don't think we're "important" enough to warrant a wind-up on ebay from someone! (Chances are that the vendor's never even heard of this forum anyway!!!)

Dave.

[aramsay]

However, the type of material here can, of course, be found on the surface - but it is much more likely that it is dug. Many British, French and Dutch collectors (and no doubt others) are actively using forums like this, along with books, maps, websites etc to trace the location of medical establishments behind the lines, so that they can search for the rubbish pits: full of personal items, badges, insignia and bottles. Many of them keep and treasure these items: in some ways, of course, they are 'saving' them. However, others are motivated by profit: one only has to scan Ebay for half an hour to find such activity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul.........if you are worried about unscrupulous people trawling the forum for leads for a place to search/dig, why on earth did you give this info. to them on a plate ? I didn't know or think about "rubbish pits" before you mentioned it, but do now !

[Paul Reed]

Hardly on a plate - logically, if they were trawling this forum they would already know about them!!

People are already aware this is possible. Nothing I can say will affect this one way or the other, as I am not telling them anything they didn't already know. What they don't know is the precise location of where these dumps might be; a CCS covers at least a square mile of ground. That's not to say we don't answer such questions here, but we should be aware of it. It is one of the reasons why I won't place detailed trench maps on my website; I know they are used by "collectors" armed with detectors.

[KIRKY]

I agree with Paul, I have known of the existence of these sites for several years but only know of one actual location which was shown to me by a regular in Tommies!

Search as I might I have never found another one!

Tony

[Chris Noble]

An intersesting thread and one that arouses alot of controversy.

As regards to being "played", i just get this funny feeling that the forum is being "watched" by some un-savoury characters, paranoia, probably.

When giving out certain locations, for example, CCS Stations as mentioned by Paul, i believe a certain amount of discretion should be used. I am not against the casual Battlefield tourist picking up the odd shrapnel ball by anymeans, although one must remember that it is, technically, illegal under French law. Its the guys with the metal detectors and the spades that are the problem and saddly, one that seems to be on the increase.

Secondly, or is it me, there seems to have been a sudden increase of items that, dare i say, look to be of a dubious nature? I've always been aware of the re-strike trade but this looks to be taking things to a higher level? A sort of Blue Peter "Heres one i made earlier".

Just my thoughts.

Chris.

[CROONAERT]

Secondly, or is it me, there seems to have been a sudden increase of items that, dare i say, look to be of a dubious nature?

I don't know if there's really been a sudden increase as such. I think it's more of a case that there's now more interest and communications (ie internet/ebay etc) is better than it was so more people are aware. 20 years ago, you could come away from somewhere like the Salient with a boot-full of decent relics and not had to dig for a single item - you could have got them for next to nothing from the museums or farmers, etc. My first German steel helmet relic came from Jaques at Hill 62, along with a Lebel rifle relic and a couple of bayonets for less than the belgian franc equivalent of £10. I swapped a WFA trenchmap for 3 helmets , 2 rifles, a pocket full of bullets and a bayonet at the trench museum at Longueval (Calypso?) in the late 1980's. The bits were always there, they were just less noticed by the general public.

Anyway, here's a scan of something that'll get the blood boiling for a few forum members...I'll just add that they were dug up using metal detector(s), and that human remains were found in the vicinity of them!!!

Dave.