juno-44 Posted 10 December , 2012 Share Posted 10 December , 2012 Hi, someone is offering me an original German W.W.1 13mm anti-tank rifle. The complete bolt is missing from the rifle and I was wondering if someone would have a spare one or would know where I could find one. Regards, juno-44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 December , 2012 Share Posted 10 December , 2012 You'll be lucky! Whilst there are a few of the rifles around now that they are on the obsolete calibre list, I have never seen or heard of a spare bolt. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 If you don't want it without the bolt, i'll have it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Hi, someone is offering me an original German W.W.1 13mm anti-tank rifle. The complete bolt is missing from the rifle and I was wondering if someone would have a spare one or would know where I could find one. Regards, juno-44 I found an ad for one for $1500, but I wasn't sure if we're allowed to post items for sale anymore, so I'll just try to PM you the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Is this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
free1954 Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 in all my life i've seen three of these rifles for sale but none had a bolt. i read somewhere that the germans threw the bolts away before they surrendered the rifles. SEADOG thanks for posting that picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Is the chap centre rear in the photograph wearing a German belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 I knew a guy who had a rack of five and I sold him mine. All had bolts and bipods. Using an enemies belt to do a belt and braces job was not unusual in either World War. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Certainly seen one in a Regimental museum with a bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Is the chap centre rear in the photograph wearing a German belt? Caption: "Found by New Zealand troops near Grenvillers this is a very large bore rifle firing long cartridges hopefully to penetrate British Tanks". I bet the "kick" on this was tremendous, From "I Was There" pub 1930`s. The belt does look like a German one, good spotting!. Norman PS Can anyone post an image of the round this weapon fired?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 The gun was normally fired from a bipod which absorbed some of the recoil (especially if bolstered with sand bags) but even so recoil was significant which is one reason why the two man crew of such a weapon were both trained as the firer, one man could only fire so many rounds before his shoulder became too bruised to allow him to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno-44 Posted 11 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Hi, to all and thank you for your help. Luckely for me I was able a few years ago to cannibalized a dozen MG08/15 that were waiting destruction at the Canadian War Museum. I still have two original MG08/15 bipods but I now understand that it will be almost impossible to find a bolt for it, so I think I will pass on it. Regards, juno-44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Caption: "Found by New Zealand troops near Grenvillers this is a very large bore rifle firing long cartridges hopefully to penetrate British Tanks". I bet the "kick" on this was tremendous, From "I Was There" pub 1930`s. The belt does look like a German one, good spotting!. Norman PS Can anyone post an image of the round this weapon fired?. I will have to take a picture for you, but it will not be until tomorrow. Centurion - I don't think the bipod wil have absorbed any recoil as it was that used by the MG08/15 and had no mechanism to absorb the shock. Even packing the bipod with sandbags would have done litle to counter the direct recoil of the rifle. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 I will have to take a picture for you, but it will not be until tomorrow. Centurion - I don't think the bipod wil have absorbed any recoil as it was that used by the MG08/15 and had no mechanism to absorb the shock. Even packing the bipod with sandbags would have done litle to counter the direct recoil of the rifle. If the bipod is firmly anchored much of the recoil force is transferred to the ground or to whatever it is anchored to. The gun also appears to have been fired from small (improvised?) carts in which the trail performed much the same function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 The anti-tank rifle 13 mm was not much liked by the German soldier precisely due to the heavy recoil Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 The anti-tank rifle 13 mm was not much liked by the German soldier precisely due to the heavy recoil Cnock No AT rifle has ever been much liked by the soldiers who had to use them down the 1918 - 1972 period for this reason but also because they were all a b****r to lug around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 From the size of the rifle and the loading slot, it looks well capable of shaking your fillings loose. Rule of thumb calculations give about 5 times the recoil momentum of an 'ordinary' fullbore calibre in a rifle of about twice the weight. I can't see that the bipod could do much to contain backward movement, unless hooked over a dug-in restraint - and then it might damage either the restraint or itself after a couple of rounds. It might not be too difficult to mock-up a bolt for display purposes with a decent drawing, a lathe and some scrap materials. Not that I'm volunteering... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 It might not be too difficult to mock-up a bolt for display purposes with a decent drawing, a lathe and some scrap materials. Regards, MikB Dont forget the sticky backed plastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Seadog, As requested, attached is a photo. On the left is a standard 7.92mm round. There is then a fired case from the 13mm, a sectioned case and bullet. If you look carefully you will see, I hope, the construction of the bullet with steel core. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Many thanks for posting, excellent comparison. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 I can't see that the bipod could do much to contain backward movement, unless hooked over a dug-in restraint - and then it might damage either the restraint or itself after a couple of rounds. If the recoil was so severe as to pull metal off or damage dug in restraints then it would be too much to fire even once without breaking a shoulder German general orders about anti tank tactics issued post Amiens specified that the anti tank rifles should be deployed in groups of four or six. Each rifle was to be positioned in a circular pit of 1.5 metre diameter. Such pits did indeed have a feature that allowed the tripod to be 'hooked', usually using sandbags as a cushion. French trials on captured rifles indicated that no more than 20 rounds could be fired before the barrel seriously overheated and had to be 'rested'. 15 rounds appears to have been the maximum a man could fire in one session (before the shoulder pain became intolerable). Orders were given that fire should not be opened until the tanks were within 500 metres range. Given typical tank speeds this gave much less than 20 minutes before their crews would be able to give the anti tank rifle pits very personal attention and it might be wise to be somewhere else before they arrived. Given the size and weight of the guns it would be difficult to beat a hasty retreat whilst carrying one. However looking at various photos of such weapons captured by tank crews all have the bolt in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 From the size of the rifle and the loading slot, it looks well capable of shaking your fillings loose. Rule of thumb calculations give about 5 times the recoil momentum of an 'ordinary' fullbore calibre in a rifle of about twice the weight. I can't see that the bipod could do much to contain backward movement, unless hooked over a dug-in restraint - and then it might damage either the restraint or itself after a couple of rounds. I have a video made several years ago by Hayes Otoupolik about his M1917 Six-ton tank, the American copy of the Ft-15. It's titled America's First Battle Tank. As a bonus in the video--which takes the form of a training session on the tank and then some re-enacted action sequences filmed from the interior--they fire a T-Gewehr at the end. The man who shot it told me that he lay sideways to prevent injury to his back, a common problem for the prone tank gunner due to the recoil. I've read that tank gunners could only fire the weapon a few times before having to stop, due to shoulder injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 I have a video made several years ago by Hayes Otoupolik about his M1917 Six-ton tank, the American copy of the Ft-15. It's titled America's First Battle Tank. As a bonus in the video--which takes the form of a training session on the tank and then some re-enacted action sequences filmed from the interior--they fire a T-Gewehr at the end. The man who shot it told me that he lay sideways to prevent injury to his back, a common problem for the prone tank gunner due to the recoil. I've read that tank gunners could only fire the weapon a few times before having to stop, due to shoulder injuries. Were they firing them from proper anti tank rifle pits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 12 December , 2012 Share Posted 12 December , 2012 Were they firing them from proper anti tank rifle pits? No. The shooter was lying prone in the open. Often German antitank riflemen didn't have time to dig the pits, especially when defending against attacks by FT-17s, which could appear quickly in unexpected places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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