Tunic on Ebay

[Chief_Chum]

It is certainly a cracking jacket. If he had been a Suffolks Sergeant I would already be emptying the piggy bank.

Below is a photograph of a 34 Div KOSB jacket which was given to me by a WFA member whose neighbour found it in his shed when he moved into his new home in Norfolk. It was filthy and in a pretty ropey condition and I cleaned it up in a similar fashion to TM's Glosters jacket.

It had no brass titles and I had hoped that it was an 11th Suffolks jacket as they were in 34th Division and wore a blue triangle at the top of their sleeves. However, when he brought the jacket round it was obvious that the triangles were the wrong way up for 11/Suffolk and a quick search traced it to the KOSB so I put some titles back on it.

The back was a bit mothed but no damage is visible from the front. Like TM's Glosters jacket with its dodgy pleats, this one is crudely made with at least six different coloured pieces of serge. The photo doesn't show this but it is multi-coloured in the flesh (or serge).

Like the eBay jacket it has a cut-down revolver lanyard around one shoulder. Certainly worn post-war as 34 Div served in the Army of Occupation.

Good luck to whoever buys the Somerset jacket. A lot of hard work will get it into a decent condition for display.

Cheers,

Taff

[Staffsyeoman]

Sort of off topic, but relevant,

The Chairman, of a sadly soon to be disbanded WW2 veterans association, tells me that he used to sew on the Brigade bars for his less dextrous comrades of 1st Worcesters, in 43rd Wessex Division, during the NW Europe campaign. He used to charge 6d a sleeve. Apparenty it was a b~gger not only to keep the bars parallel, but also to stop the whole shooting match ending at the elbow, and consequently not at the prescribed distance from the shoulder seam. (for the record the badges were 'Worcesters' title, Wessex 'Wyvern', three red Brigade bars, Worcesters Regimental flash bar, and stripes if you were 'insignia challenged')

Sorry to stray off again, but toc, I'd be ever so obliged if you could ask the gentleman if he could describe the "Worcesters Regimental Flash Bar" for me? 43rd Wessex and 53rd Welsh Divisionscould often look like Christmas trees with all these badges and bars... And I bet he didn't offer (or did he?) to do a 'battle flash' - all mounted on one piece of khaki for easy removal - which I thought was a WW2 innovation, but have been assured (see, back on track now) appeared in WW1.

[Chief_Chum]

When working on 'Somme; From Defeat to Victory' for the BBC I came across this photograph in Michael Stedman's Salford Pals book.

It made life a great deal easier when having to produce over a hundred sets of 2nd Salford insignia.

The photograph is of Frank Holding, 15th Lancashire Fusiliers.

.

[john gregory]

Again slightly of topic but here is a 2nd Manchester's showing the red diamond with company bars sown onto khaki.

[tocemma]

Sorry to stray off again, but toc, I'd be ever so obliged if you could ask the gentleman if he could describe the "Worcesters Regimental Flash Bar" for me? 43rd Wessex and 53rd Welsh Divisionscould often look like Christmas trees with all these badges and bars... And I bet he didn't offer (or did he?) to do a 'battle flash' - all mounted on one piece of khaki for easy removal - which I thought was a WW2 innovation, but have been assured (see, back on track now) appeared in WW1.

Phil,

I think I might have made it sound more exciting than it was! Just a mid green bar, the same shape and size as the Brigade bars, but a Regimental peculiarity nonetheless. I also had a BD blouse of a Worcester's Officer attached to 129 Brigade, 43rd Div. Worcester's woven title, Wyvern, SINGLE red bar (129 Bde) and green Worcesters flash. Hope this of interest.

Re Taff's post, I had an original of that 15th LF at one time, if I recall it was a red triangle over three blue bars (don't quote me, I may have reversed the colours!) I'll dig out a photo of it. It was complete on the backing cloth. EDIT Try red triangle over three red bars (Unless I've chosen another unit altogether!!) either way it shows that these were made up as a 'patch'

Regards

Tocemma

PS Re John's latest -Give a soldier a badge and try and stop him wearing it! Brass Man. and woven Man. and a flash. Wonderful overkill I love it!

[trenchtrotter]

Im sure you know...£1130, less than 24 hours left!

TT

[Muerrisch]

barking, just barking

[Nigel Marshall]

Has there been a retraction of a bid?

£1130 now, but TT said it was at £1150.

This thread just confirms in my mind that by not collecting uniforms I am saving myself from a lot of head scratching. There are quite a few conflicting opinions as to whether this jacket is 'right' or not and they come from people who's opinions I would respect and be happy to rely on.

I'm no wiser. I would love to know though. I'd also love to know if the buyer got a good price at the end of the auction. I could see my self paying this price if a the right group of medals came up to my regiment of interest, so I can fully grasp that aspect of things.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Grovetown]

There are quite a few conflicting opinions as to whether this jacket is 'right' or not and they come from people who's opinions I would respect and be happy to rely on.

I would say that there is a universal consensus among the 'serious' uniform collectors that the jacket is 'right'; the main question being roughly when it was issued/ worn i.e is it a 1918 trench worn item, or is it a demob 'wear home' thing. I am betwixt and between...

As it is, I would have been quite keen - but suffered something of a 'commercial setback' in the week, which means prudence prevails.

Cheers,

GT.

[Steven Broomfield]

This thread just confirms in my mind that by not collecting uniforms I am saving myself from a lot of head scratching.

Nigel

That's why I stick to books. You know where you are with the printed page.

[trenchtrotter]

Lets face it...most OR juackets are those worn at the very end of hostilities. A service jacket would be filthy, torn, smelly, stained, faded etc. What decent CO would allow his men to be demobbed in such condition?

TT

[Muerrisch]

I would say that there is a universal consensus among the 'serious' uniform collectors that the jacket is 'right'; the main question being roughly when it was issued/ worn i.e is it a 1918 trench worn item, or is it a demob 'wear home' thing. I am betwixt and between...

Cheers,

GT.

I do not subscribe to the universal consensus, but then perhaps I am not serious.

[Grovetown]

I do not subscribe to the universal consensus, but then perhaps I am not serious.

Entirely serious of course, but wasn't sure uniform collecting was quite your thing.

GT.

[Muerrisch]

I agree its a bit peripheral, to be fair.

[ianw]

The problem with this sort of price level is that it makes it well worthwhile for clever folk with a bit of knowledge to cobble something up , start the artificial ageing process and stash it in the shed rafters for a few years until "done".

[Grovetown]

The problem with this sort of price level is that it makes it well worthwhile for clever folk with a bit of knowledge to cobble something up , start the artificial ageing process and stash it in the shed rafters for a few years until "done".

'Twas ever thus.

[MACRAE]

'Twas ever thus.

The cost of this tunic gives me more reason to stick to badges and medals.

Dan

[tocemma]

Ian,

I think most of the fakers don't have the patience for that, being mostly of the 'fast buck' variety. Most of the aging is crude and frequently easy to spot.

In my experience, the most clever and subtle fakes are the ones presenting in good order with (usually) some correct insignia applied.

All,

As to earlier answers about head scratching...not sure scratching any body parts would really help in the decision making. Unfortunately there is no short cut, but to look at as many original tunics and insignia as possible. For those of us that have done this for many years, it was a good deal easier in the past. Today there are too few good jackets on the market to allow for casual inspection. I think my advice would be to get to know as many collectors as possible, and study the types of material and construction on as many items as is possible.

Mental notes are good, but I wish I had been more methodical in my record keeping over the years.

I especially rue the fact that I came upon digital photography too late for it to have been much use in recording the several collections of WW1 material that have passed through my hands over the years.

I have a lovely Nikon D3 now, but my collection is considerably downsized from what it use to be (at one crazy point 95 tunics!) since I discovered the charms of big green WW2 vehicles! I have seen literally hundreds of Great War British jackets, but have also owned, albeit somewhat briefly, excellent examples of complete French, German and US uniforms and equipment, acquired from some of the best collections in Europe. I have travelled all over the UK and Europe, even as far as Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria on the hunt for items.

What it really boils down to is making the effort to learn from the experience of other wiser collectors, and I count several forum members amongst those that have helped and advised me over the years. I also looked at and acquired as much original source information as I could find ( in any case there was very little reliable published reference at the time and in my opinion what is available today is still pretty patchy in its coverage, with notable exceptions of course!) That research often gave me a distinct advantage when it came to recognising different service patterns and items.

Regular contributor Joe Sweeney is a very good exponent of this type of research, and I would say his collection of original service documentation is unrivalled when it comes to WW1 British clothing and necessaries. Many of us here call upon the research he has done.

It is also worth being prepared to use up the necessary shoe leather sometimes. I have often rolled out of bed at 5.30 am on Saturday mornings to visit the London militaria markets that once existed. In those days the early and persistent bird really did catch the worm. It didn't always make me very popular when I had a young family, but I certainly bagged some very good items!

I realise that not everyone wishes to collect at such intense levels, or is willing or able to spend the vast sums now seemingly required for even a modest collection, but there is no excuse for not looking and listening. I learn something new on the forum all the time.

I don't think I ever visited a collection anywhere without coming away thinking 'B~gger me, I've not seen one like that before!'

All part of the fun!

Tocemma

[ralphjd]

Bl**dy Hell £2169.00 Get searching your shed !!

[wainfleet]

Is this price really so astonishing? People have paid as much and more for certain Nazi items for many years. Prestige items of militaria like blued and gilt swords command similar sums. If collectors can afford those, why would they not also compete heavily for something like this? It was only going to be a matter of time before such rarities, so strongly evocative of the front line in the Great War, reached this price level. It is a lot of money on one level, but then quite a few people can find it if they really want to. It is not a life-changing sum.

As has been said here many times, it's gutting for those on lower incomes who have been collecting WW1 items at a low level for some time and hoped to carry on doing so. Expect more tunics like this one to appear on ebay in the near future!

[eparges]

I'm not surprised: why should a nice brit tunic be worth less than a 'Feldgrau'? Past year I've seen about 10 german tunics pass by, and only one like this...

[dutchbarge]

Is this price really so astonishing? People have paid as much and more for certain Nazi items for many years. Prestige items of militaria like blued and gilt swords command similar sums. If collectors can afford those, why would they not also compete heavily for something like this? It was only going to be a matter of time before such rarities, so strongly evocative of the front line in the Great War, reached this price level. It is a lot of money on one level, but then quite a few people can find it if they really want to. It is not a life-changing sum.

As has been said here many times, it's gutting for those on lower incomes who have been collecting WW1 items at a low level for some time and hoped to carry on doing so. Expect more tunics like this one to appear on ebay in the near future!

Well said, W. Many years ago, when I asked my friend Hayes Otoupalik how he could justify the high cost of purchasing 2 WW1 Renault tanks (he later sold one to the Ecole Militaire for many times what he paid for the pair) he replied, "Bill, a guy can always find money, but I will never find another pair of WW1 tanks". Over the years his comment has helped me justify what at the time seemed like rather audacious purchases, but which today seem like bargains.

I have lately observed that the prices of US WW1 uniforms, ridiculously low for so long, have recently begun to climb. I just purchased a rather nice named and dated ensemble (tunic, pistol belt, holster, ammo pouch and overseas cap) to a 2nd Lt. who served with the fledgling USA Tank Corps at St. Mihiel/Argonne for about a third of what the Somerset jacket went for on eBay. A few years ago I could have had the ensemble for about a third of what I just paid.

Cheers, Bill

[john gregory]

I must admit I bid £1,110 for the tunic and if I had the money I would have gone higher. If someone wants the item and is prepared to pay and is happy I can not see anything wrong in that.

I have been to an auction in Derby and seen two bidders after a trio to a 1.7.16 kia and they went for just over £900 which at the time I thought was crazy money, now 6 months later I am told that was a bargain. So where do we draw the line and say enough is enough but we do'nt, if we have been searching for something for a long time and we see what we want and if the money is available we buy and then go home happy, ( but skint ). Many forum members would not agree but that is my thoughts.

[Gunner Bailey]

I would definitely have wanted the shed as well at that price. Saying that, I may have a complete WW1 unform coming into my shop soon, if it can be found in a loft. I'll have to wait though, and try not to get too excited....

John

[Nigel Marshall]

I must admit I bid £1,110 for the tunic and if I had the money I would have gone higher. If someone wants the item and is prepared to pay and is happy I can not see anything wrong in that.

I have been to an auction in Derby and seen two bidders after a trio to a 1.7.16 kia and they went for just over £900 which at the time I thought was crazy money, now 6 months later I am told that was a bargain. So where do we draw the line and say enough is enough but we do'nt, if we have been searching for something for a long time and we see what we want and if the money is available we buy and then go home happy, ( but skint ). Many forum members would not agree but that is my thoughts.

I can agree entirely with that John.

I've paid what some have said has been too much money for medals, but I've come away from the sale room happy but skint. I've also snatched some bargains, usually through the sellers not doing their homework before selling what they have.

I think the price of this jacket surprised me because it isn't the sort of thing I usually follow.

I have to confess that I put this on my watchlist, even though there was never a chance of me bidding.

Cheers,

Nigel