RAMC Officers

[PhilB]

Can anyone confirm that RAMC officers, though they wore Sam Brownes, did not carry swords? Thanks. Phil B

[Pete1052]

There's a Boer War RAMC sword for sale on eBay right now. Click

[pbrydon]

There is a picture of Noel Chavasse in Ann Claytons book" Chavasse Double V.C." of the man himself on horseback in service dress complete with sword

Peter Brydon

[riflegreen]

Phil ,

RAMC used the 1822 pattern "brass" gothic hilt with VR crest untill the crest was changed in 1901 to ERvii and then GRV , they didn't change to the 1897 infantry type type hilt until 1934 .

Any "brass" gothic hilt sword with a ERvii or GRV wil be RAMC .

Chris

[PhilB]

Thank you, gents. Just seemed incongruous that a doctor should carry a sword. A scalpel, yes! Phil B

[Max]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 25 2007, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you, gents. Just seemed incongruous that a doctor should carry a sword. A scalpel, yes! Phil B

Were all RAMC officers doctors?

[Muerrisch]

All RAMC were armed ..... a throwback to the days when you couldn't trust a Fuzzywuzzy to respect the Geneva convention.

[PhilB]

Were all RAMC officers doctors?

Not sure about that. Used to think so, but Camilla`s dad got made i/c RAVC didn`t he? Phil B

[Muerrisch]

Who is this camilla?

[PhilB]

Parker-Bowles. Didn`t her dad (Brig P- cause a stir when he became the first non vet to be put I/C RAVC? Phil B

[DrB]

Phil B.

I possess a RAMC sword, leather sheath, KC on the blade, as described previously with Sam Browne belt.

It has the medical corps motto on the blade which also carries ""T.G. Phillips, 4 Dame St, Dublin" which suggests the wearer/owner might have attended medical school in Ireland or at least been outfitted in that country. (I would assume that T.G. Phillips was the tailor)

DrB

[PhilB]

I`m convinced, gents - RAMC officers DID carry swords!

Now, am I correct in thinking that RAVC officers carry a 1912 pattern cavalry sabre? Phil B

[chrisharley9]

Were all RAMC officers doctors?

You will find RAMC officers who were Quartermasters in a number of cases commissioned from the ranks

Chris

[PhilB]

Right, Chris. Lots of QM RAMC officers in WW1 Army List. Phil B

[Paul Reed]

All RAMC were armed ..... a throwback to the days when you couldn't trust a Fuzzywuzzy to respect the Geneva convention.

Indeed they were - below is Captain A.M. Thomson, RMO of 7th Bn Royal Sussex Regiment photographed in the trenches opposite the Hohenzollern Redoubt in early 1916. He was killed at Mash Valley on 7th July 1916, and was recommended for a VC for his bravery that day.

Name: THOMSON, ALFRED MAURICE

Initials: A M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps

Secondary Regiment: Royal Sussex Regiment

Secondary Unit Text: attd. 7th Bn.

Age: 30

Date of Death: 07/07/1916

Additional information: Son of Alfred and Florence C. Thomson, of 9, Osborne Mansions, Northumberland St., London.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 4 C.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

[PhilB]

Is that a revolver, Paul? Phil B

[Paul Reed]

Yes, it is. That's why I posted it, to illustrate David's point above about sidearms.

[PhilB]

I`m surprised to see that. I can understand a doctor wearing a sword for ceremonial at WW1 time but I really did think they went around unarmed. I wonder if there were standing orders for doctors to arm or perhaps it was a personal decision? Phil B

[squirrel]

I had understood that Medics were allowed to bear arms for self defence and the defence of those in their care under the Geneva codes. Am I correct in this understanding?

[PhilB]

Sounds a bit odd, though, an MO shooting one man to protect another? Not exactly Hippocratic oath stuff? And I think they all took the oath? Phil B

[barrieduncan]

Didn't the 'Lady of Loos', Mlle. Emilienne Moreau, kill two German snipers with a revolver belonging to one the medical officers?

Isn't it also the case that you are trained as a soldier first, and then your trade/profession afterwards?

Barrie

[PhilB]

It`s not quite the same for doctors, though:-

"Today, the Hippocratic Oath is not generally sworn by medical students upon qualification, since the language of the Oath has become outmoded.

However, about half of all UK medical schools administer an oath of some kind, either at the beginning of a student's medical studies or upon graduation, in order to formally acknowledge his or her commitment to medicine. Texts vary. Some use an updated version of the Hippocratic Oath, while others use the World Medical Association's International Code of Medical Ethics, known as the Declaration of Geneva - go there now (which was first adopted in 1948 and amended in 1968, 1983 and 1994 and editorially amended in 2005 and 2006). Other medical graduates use an oath formulated by the medical school itself.

Although views differ about the value of making some form of oath, the BMA supports the practice of health professionals making a formal commitment to upholding ethical standards of conduct at the start of their careers"

Would they have been able to ignore medical ethics for the duration of the war? Phil B

[walrus]

According to an uncle of mine (RAMC ambulance driver in the Second World War), medical staff were armed to allow them to protect their charges (ie: the wounded).

Presumably in the case of the MO and the Hippocratic Oath, the Doctor would be using any weapon on someone who was not his patient (yet) and therefore the oath didn't apply.

Tom (the Walrus)

[squirrel]

Sounds fair enough.

[PhilB]

Not so fast! Doctors on qualification generally take a modified form of the oath these days, but the giste would presumably reflect the original. (The few I`ve been present at did). Here`s the original:-

THE OATH OF HIPPOCRATES

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons labouring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.

I don`t think that gives carte blanche to kill anyone? Phil B