Australias participation WW1

[Guest Arthur6719]

I have strange feelings about ANZAC day as an Anglo Australian who is a student of WW1 and proudly visited many a WW1 battlefield with my family and had relatives in both the ANZACS and British Army. I find it strange the constant deriding of the British, more to the point, English troops.

Approximately 65-70,000 of the 300,000 troops who left these shores was 1st generation Brit and therefore by population percentages mostly English.

Yet commentators continue to denigrate the British Officer class and generally but more subliminally the English Soldier. I have no problem in stating in my opinion the ANZACS were some of the best fighting units in WW1 however lets view this in perspective.

By the time the ANZACS turned up in France, two British armies had been wiped out.

The British Regulars 1914-15

Kitcheners Volunteers 1916

By the time the ANZACS turned up for the Somme they were sharing the trenches with mostly British conscripts.

In 1914-1918, I firmly believe that in our history Australians and New Zealanders rightly or wrongly thought of themselves as EX pat Brits as was the British view of them, therefore not foreigners.

Lastly I believe the ANZACS high mortality was a product of their own successes, i.e. they were self motivated and not incumbered by the old fashion machine like brainwashing that European countries had installed in their respective soldiers over hundreds of years.

My father a WW2 veteran always commented “ If we would have done this or that we would have been shot” the Australians were not hindered by such robotic attitudes.

Yes the Officer class who led all the soldiers (by the way Haig was a Scot, Billy Hughes and Lloyd George Welsh) did make some awful cock ups, but all the armies did. However by 1918 Haig organised the most successful campaign ever in British history.

I will admit they were special troops but I cannot accept that they were let down by their British counterparts.

If you see any Australian made WW1 feature the officers all talk as if they have a plumb stuck up their **** and the general soldier talks as if he is a Cockney barrow boy whose as thick as ****, all the fun characters are Dinky die or Irish, is it that no one but an Englishman ever made a mistake.

I don’t believe it to be malicious but like Chinese whispers it has gone from isolated incidents to Historical fact. It seems that our ANZAC celebration on the 25th included a note of reconciliation to everyone except Britain’s 900,000 plus soldiers who also lost their lives.

[Ozzie]

If you read some of the accounts by soldiers of the AIF themselves, you will see that more than anything they pitied the Tommy. They kept their derision for the officer class. Which I might add, the Tommies them selves wondered about?

90 years after the fact can't we agree that it was a time where the mettle of a man was tested to the extreme and some in every army were found wanting? Some were staunch and others just crazy brave.

Today there are some that persist in Pom Bashing, some who persist in Aussie baiting, but ask yourself this.

On the Brits side...If you had been conscripted to fight in this ugly war, what would you have done.

On the Aussie side.....Would you have been in the first volunteers?

If you can't give an honest answer to these questions, why argue it, and why bring the courage of the individual soldiers who made up these armies into question?

It was a different time, a different place and certainly, a different war to what we know today.

I am among the first to be patriotic, to defend Austarlia's reputation in the Great War. But I do see both sides and I see the shades of grey between the black and white.

If more people would cast aside past predujices maybe we could all get on a little better,

Cheers

Kim

[Ozzie]

PS

Didn't think much of the political talk on the 25th. Getting too far away from what really matters.

All the men who fought, no matter the country of origin.

[Dolphin]

By the time the ANZACS turned up for the Somme they were sharing the trenches with mostly British conscripts. 

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Arthur

I know I'm nitpicking, but as the UK Miltary Service Act was passed in January 1916, I don't think that there would have been many conscripts in France when the AIF first arrived.

Gareth

[Guest Arthur6719]

My apologise I have just read a similar thread which the moderator closed. It becomes an emotive subject which has no right or wrong and I believe would not have been raised by the majority of soldiers what ever side they fought.

I was just trying to understand how in Aus who are so proud of their WW1 diggers we forget that the majority of the troops who left these shores were either poms or sons of poms.

[Auimfo]

Arthur6719,

To echo what Ozzie said - I don't think the Australian troops despised their British counterparts - in fact a high majority of Aussies had a great deal of respect for the regulars. What they didn't like and did despise was poor leadership that uselessly wasted lives time and again.

Perhaps historians (on both sides) in the years following the war helped create the 'rift' that has been perpetuated right up to today.

Although many of the AIF were british born I firmly believe that there were enough 'aussie' born to heavily influence the character of the army and it must not be forgotten that it was made up entirely of volunteers.

It's hard to put a definitive finger on it, but there was definately a marked 'democratic' feel to the AIF and it didn't matter where you hailed from.

Tim L.

P.S. My Grandfather was one such 'British' Anzac, having emigrated to Australia in 1910.

[Ozzie]

Australia was such a hodge podge of people from all different places. Australian Aborigines enlisted and were treated with respect, probably for the first time in their life.

Sons of emmigrants from countries all over the world and immigrants that had landed in Australia only a few years before joined up. If you look at the rolls you will find German and Italian names. How hard was it for them!!! Never mind the Brits! They must have copped a fair bit because of their names, but they enlisted as Australians and fought under the Australian flag. When you ask why did the Brits come to Australia, I think you will find your answer.

Anzac Day is a rememberance day for every soldier that left Australian shores to fight in every conflict that we have been involved in since we became a nation. Gallipoli was the test, the blooding, the rest, the proof of Australia's commitment to the belief of helping out when needed.

Except for Darwin, we have been lucky enough never to have had war on our land and this should also be part of the thoughts we have on Anzac Day.

I'll stop now.

Kim

[Guest 3RAR]

Except for Darwin, we have been lucky enough never to have had war on our land and this should also be part of the thoughts we have on Anzac Day.

I'll stop now.

Kim

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-Agreed Kim

However without trying to be pedantic, we should also add Broome,Derby,Sydney (all in 1942) & Cowra NSW in 1944. (probably missed 1 or 2 others myself).

Regards

Gary

[Dolphin]

However without trying to be pedantic, we should also add Broome,Derby,Sydney (all in 1942) & Cowra NSW in 1944. (probably missed 1 or 2 others myself).

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Gary

On 5 August 1914 Port Phillip Bay in Victoria saw the first shots fired by the British Empire in the War, when the battery at Queenscliff fired on the German steamer Pfalz which was trying to flee.

Broken Hill NSW in 1914 should also be added to the list. It was a tiny action, but those killed were just as dead as those who fell on 'real' battlefields.

The raider SMS Wolf was active in Australian waters in 1916, and one of her mines was washed up at Noosa in Queensland in the 1920s.

I have an idea that Japanese flying boats bombed Townsville in about 1943.

Regards

Gareth

[Ozzie]

Sorry Guys,

When I posted this I had in mind, the battles Gallipoli, Somme, Burma, Vietnam etc. Not to belittle what did happen in our country, I was thinking more along the lines of larger scale mayhem.

Kim

[Andrew P]

For countries of birth, on a smaller scale I've researched those from Fremantle, Western Australia.

Of the 705 who died;

68% were Australian born

25% were born in the UK

2.5% were born in NZ

2% other European countries

2% unknown.

[cartoss]

I recently researched a ALH member listed on our local war memorial. He was one of 4 brothers in the same regiment. When I checked the embarkation roll via AWM site I was surprised at the number of NOK addresses in the UK. Although I did not count them it looked to be about 1/4 - 1/3 UK.

On the subject of "Pom Bashing". It is a national pastime and I think it should be preserved. Britain and Australia have a long tradition of having a go at each other. Remember how the Ashes trophy originated. Perhaps I shouldnt have mentioned that one

[Dolphin]

When I was growing up in Mosman, NSW, we lived next door to an ex-AIF man who told me that the Diggers of the time felt that they had a right to criticise the British Army and the higher management of the War on the Western Front. I think he said that Canadians and New Zealanders were also allowed to be critical - he may not have met any/many South Africans. However, the Aussies didn't extend that right to the Americans when they arrived in 1918, and criticism of the British Army by Doughboys was seen as justification for a fight to defend the honour of the Empire.

I suppose it was akin to a feeling of being part of a family; internal dissent is all right, but outsiders aren't eligble to join in.

Gareth

[Guest Arthur6719]

I agree that the stick between the Aussies and Poms should never end, God gifted the Aussies with great sporting prowess (It was rough at work today-The Ashes) but their Mick taking needs a little work.

I have been in Aus 30 years and proud to be both Australian and English. If we (the British) did let our dominion troops do a disproportionate amount of the donkey work we should admit the fact, however I don’t believe it to be true.

I realize I’m on a whipping for nothing, but it does really get up my goat when you see the locally made films like Gallipoli and ANZACS and various documentaries portraying us as at best shirkers and sometimes complete imbeciles and like it or not that is the popular opinion, also last ANZAC day the New Zealand Prime Minister was not to complimentary in her speech towards the British troops. You never get to hear that the Brits also lost 27,000 men during the Dardanelles campaign.

We must have made some major errors in tactics, but at the end of the day if winning of the war can be the correct terminology for such mass murder the Germans didn’t. I do not want to diminish what any other troops did in the Great War; I would just like the same respect for there British counterparts.

[Ozzie]

On the subject of "Pom Bashing".  It is a national pastime and I think it should be preserved.  Britain and Australia have a long tradition of having a go at each other.  Remember how the Ashes trophy originated.  Perhaps I shouldnt have mentioned that one 

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You have hit the nail on the head, it is now a tradition.

Hmmm, the Ashes.

Cheers

Kim

[Ozzie]

When I was growing up in Mosman, NSW, we lived next door to an ex-AIF man who told me that the Diggers of the time felt that they had a right to criticise the British Army and the higher management of the War on the Western Front.  I think he said that Canadians and New Zealanders were also allowed to be critical - he may not have met any/many South Africans.  However, the Aussies didn't extend that right to the Americans when they arrived in 1918, and criticism of the British Army by Doughboys was seen as justification for a fight to defend the honour of the Empire.

I suppose it was akin to a feeling of being part of a family; internal dissent is all right, but outsiders aren't eligble to join in.

Gareth

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Gareth,

I just loved your post. So very true. She is our Queen when any one other than Commonwealth countries, comment on her, but internally, the question is asked, why is she our Queen now.

Let anyone have a go at the Yanks, but don't have a go at the Poms unless your an Aussie.

And our favourites the Kiwis. Always the fiercest cricket and rugby matches, if allowed, it may be to the death, but don't anyone, anywhere else, say a word about our cousins the Kiwis, we would back the Kiwis to the end.

Aussies are loyal but we are also larrikins, so forgive us our sense of humour but beware if you hurt our friends.

Cheers

[Kate Wills]

And our favourites the Kiwis. Always  the fiercest cricket and rugby matches, if allowed, it may be to the death, but don't anyone, anywhere else, say a word about our cousins the Kiwis, we would back the Kiwis to the end.

Cheers

Does this extend to the last ball that you are bowling in a limited-over match, when the scores are level?

Thankyou for those posts Gareth and Ozzie. It is good to know the sense of family prevails.

[Ozzie]

I realize I’m on a whipping for nothing, but it does really get up my goat when you see the locally made films like Gallipoli and ANZACS and various documentaries portraying us as at best shirkers and sometimes complete imbeciles and like it or not that is the popular opinion, also last ANZAC day the New Zealand Prime Minister was not to complimentary in her speech towards the British troops. You never get to hear that the Brits also lost 27,000 men during the Dardanelles campaign.

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It was sad to see political point scoring at the Anzac ceremony but maybe we should invite the PM's of Oz and NZ to this Forum. They would learn so much.

I feel that, unfortunately, Oz is only just coming out of the them, and us, the Colonial, mentality and it is through mediums such as this forum that some of the truth is coming out. Mind you, I defend the Aussies participation in the war as significant, still in 2005.

I think Australia does not see the Brits at Gallipoli in the same way they see them on the Somme. There is so much more info about the Brits on the Somme than the Brits at Gallipoli.

Thanks for the though provoking post.

Cheers

Kim

[Dolphin]

I realize I’m on a whipping for nothing, but it does really get up my goat when you see the locally made films like Gallipoli and ANZACS and various documentaries portraying us as at best shirkers and sometimes complete imbeciles . . .

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Arthur

I remember reading an interview with Peter Weir about Gallipoli where he was defensive about the film being perceived as being a bit anti-British. The man who was probably responsible for the 10th ALH charge at The Nek was the Australian Lt Col Jack Antill, who was perhaps trying to be 'more British than the British'. Unfortunately, unless the film viewer has a reasonable knowledge of the action, the impression gained is almost certainly that the British command was in some way responsible for this Australian disaster (in an area commanded by Australians).

On the other hand, there are instances where Australian successes have been described as being 'British' by UK commentators (we're all part of the Empire/Commonwealth) and, of course, outstanding Commonwealth feats of arms have been called simply 'Allied' or 'UN' when the US was the dominant force. The Korean War is a case in point.

Gareth

[Ozzie]

Does this extend to the last ball that you are bowling in a limited-over match, when the scores are level?

Thankyou for those posts Gareth and Ozzie. It is good to know the sense of family prevails.

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That was not Cricket.

To this day that ball is still talked about.

Cheers

Kim

[Ozzie]

Arthur

On the other hand, there are instances where Australian successes have been described as being 'British' by UK commentators (we're all part of the Empire/Commonwealth) and, of course, outstanding Commonwealth feats of arms have been called simply 'Allied' or 'UN' when the US was the dominant force.  The Korean War is a case in point.

Gareth

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Good point

I feel that had the different Armies, eg. Canadians, Anzacs and Sth Africans, had been named as such, in past writings, instead of under the Allied umbrella, then alot of arguement and defensiveness would not be present in conversations today.

And Yes, Anthill was a problem to the Anzacs, a big problem.

Kim

[Kate Wills]

I know Kim. However, it did serve one very useful purpose, i.e. to underline cricket's place as representative of something far deeper than a ball-game in our culture. You should see the look of amazement on foreigners' faces when told that NZ almost broke-off diplomatic relations in the wake of that last ball.

[Ozzie]

If only sport could replace conflict in getting one's aggression out. It is a

far flung wish but what a better world it would be.

[Guest Tanyar]

When criticising Australian films for the way they depict the British we should keep in mind the examples that are set for them by the films produced by the BBC etc.

After viewing The Trench one could only be amazed that the Poor Bloody Infantryman could ever be coerced to put a rifle to his shoulder to defend a system that held him in such contempt.

Some correspondents wish us to believe that the Australian forces were British through and through. Kim eloquently sheds some light on that.

One observation coming from this discussion is that most people consider that Australians can only give proper credit to her soldiers if she compares them with their contempories around the world.

Australians should be able to evaluate their country's achievements without being forced to give equal time to the stories of others. The individual stories of over 300,000 men will take time to tell. That it inself is a major project for any country.

Another disturbing feature is the willingness to assign current day sporting attributes to those of respective nations at the time of the Great War. That is patently ridiculous. But while on the subject, telegrams were exchanged between the Australian Government and the MCC during the Bodyline series. One of the factors discussed was the possibility of Australia reducing payments to the Mother Country for monies borrowed to put the Australian Army into the War

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Except for Darwin, we have been lucky enough never to have had war on our land ...

Kim

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I think you should study WW2 a bit more.

Whilst Darwin raids were the most well known, areas across the North of Australia were bombed over a period of two years including Townsville, Broome, Derby and Port Hedland.

Sydney Harbour, Newcastle and Port Gregory were shelled by submarines while aircraft from the submarines flew over Melbourne, Wollangong, Sydney and Newcastle.

Who could forget the mini-subs attack on Sydney Harbour ?

Edward

PS here is a very good listing (and follow the links for the other items) ==>

JAPANESE AIR RAIDS IN AUSTRALIA DURING WW2